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ktbabe
I'm really hoping someone here can give advice.


I had a dog who was 4 years old, he was aggressive more so around young children. Having 5 children, we had to make the choice to get him rehomed. We didnt take this choice lightly. We tried everything, neutering, advice from the vet, behaviour therapist etc. For the last 12 months he was with us he lived outside in the back yard, only coming in at night. Hes fine with our other dog and our cats. He just didnt like kids for whatever reason. But even keeping him outside became a problem as we had so many complaints too our landlord about his constant barking whenever someone walked past our house. Thankfully the landlord was understanding and knew we were trying so hard to get him rehomed.

Fast forward to may 2008, I contacted dogs trust and explained the situation, they sent me a form to fill in and said they would help us. I sent it back with a photo included. Last week I got a call saying they could have him and could we bring him in. We made the 120 mile round trip and even gave them a largeish donation, handed him over after saying goodbye...he seemed happy. The last time I saw him he was jumping up the woman who took him off me at dogs trust, tail wagging, tongue out...he seemed really happy.

Lots of tears on the way home. Probably one of the hardest things ive had to do in my life but i know deep down its for the best. Hubby and I talked and agreed he would be happier there, getting attention without having kids running around and even possibly getting a forever home with no kids.


ok now the day after i got a call from dogs trust asking us to pick the dog up...apparently he is "aggressive and not happy" ....they KNEW from the first time i made contact with him that he is aggressive...even on the forms i filled out when i was sat in the reception area i stated he was aggressive...the woman behind the reception read it before i took him into the kennel area!!


I told her we were not in a position financially now to pick him up RIGHT THIS SECOND and that I would try finding someone else that would take him (although now i have made lots of calls to different re homing places, they have all said if dogs trust wont try re homing him then they wont either)...My husband called the vets and asked about getting him put to sleep, they said they wont put a dog down just for aggression unless he actually bit someone. So far he hasnt...and from what i can tell at dogs trust, hes just doing alot of growling.

Surely dogs trust have the facilities and means to deal with an aggressive dog?? or am i wrong??

Where do i stand? do I HAVE to pick him up? If i dont, what will happen?


Thanks if you have got this far. Any advice would be great!
Salem&Maisie
If you have signed the dog over to them he is no longer your dog so i don't see why you have to go and pick him up.
If they don't feel he is suitable for rehoming then they should put him to sleep, but from what you've said he doesn't sound dangerous. Where i used to work (Woodgreen) they would either work with him 1 to 1 till he was ready to go to a new home or make the decision to put him to sleep, at which point they would contact the previous owner so that they could take the dog back if they wanted.
To be honest i would try to find him another rescue place, not mention whats happened, and collect him from the Dogs Trust when you can as they don't seem capable to finding him a good home. This is probably how they get round there "we never put a healty dog down" rubbish.
It might be worth contacting Woodgreen as they are usually good at taking dogs that dont like children.
Hope this all works out for you,
Sam
sarah2482
Crikey this is difficult!

I'm afraid I dont have an answer for you - with so many better qualified people on here I wouldnt want to offer my own measley proffers.

I just wanted to give you a hug hug.gif and hope someone has some brilliant advice for you.

Hang in there sad.gif
border collie
QUOTE(Salem&Maisie @ 11th Aug 2008, 9:15 pm) *


To be honest i would try to find him another rescue place, not mention whats happened, and collect him from the Dogs Trust



I don't think that it is a good idea to not mention that he doesn't like children. Someone could rehome him with children and we will be reading a horror story in the paper next.



If you get him back from DT ask what tests they did to determine his aggression.
amber
QUOTE(border collie @ 11th Aug 2008, 9:32 pm) *

I don't think that it is a good idea to not mention that he doesn't like children. Someone could rehome him with children and we will be reading a horror story in the paper next.
If you get him back from DT ask what tests they did to determine his aggression.



I think maybe the other poster meant, not to mention that Dogs Trust wouldn't rehome, but to still advise on his dislike of children unsure.gif

Tough situation - sounds like you have tried to resolve the problem with behaviourist and when that didn't work, you tried to manage to the problem but realised that wasn't giving the dog the quality of life he deserves (being out in the yard all day).

If it were me and my dog (no criticism implied - just saying what I'd do if it were my dog) I would be off to Dogs Trust like a shot to pick him up.

Failing that, I would at least query as to why they feel unable to rehome him or work with him with one of their behaviourists.

I too would try every (good, reputable) rescue I could think of, to try to give him a chance.

However - if it comes to a no-win situation and PTS is the only option I would prefer to take the dog to the vet myself and be there with him at the end, rather than leave him with strangers at Dogs Trust to be PTS. I feel that I would at least owe the dog to be there with him at the end sad.gif . I can fully applaud your vet's stance not to PTS a healthy dog but if there is literally NO OTHER OPTION and Dogs Trust are going to do it anyway and refuse to put him for rehoming (and you cannot get another rescue place anywhere) maybe the vet could come up with some suggestion of where he can go, or reconsider euthanasia...though this would be very sad....I hope you can find another rescue or maybe a behaviorist or trainer that will agree to take him, but maybe that depends on the severity of the aggression.
Jennifereva
What have you decided to do? unsure.gif
ktbabe
Thanks for the replies..and the hugs..i so need them.

Right now we are doing nothing. They havent called back today so i dont know what to think err.gif maybe today hes settled a bit?

steph&harv
What breed is your dog? Perhaps there may be a breed specific rescue that could help?

hug.gif to you though and the difficult time your having right now. Hope you manage to find a solution.
lisa73
Im confused I thought the DTs policy was never to put a healthy dog down which branch is it? I know that all of the DT branches that I have visited have got long term dogs that arnt suitable for rehoming but have lots of attention from the staff and usually a nice sofa etc and plenty to occupy them in their kennel.

If you made them fully aware of the situation and signed him over to them then legally now he is their responsibility and they shouldnt be ringing demanding you take him back.

It all sounds very bizarre. I would ring them back again and more fully ask them to explain what the problem is. Ask them if you can speak with his carer there and their behaviourist to explain more about his adversities his reactions and perhaps help them make sense of his behaviour now and how to handle him and help him become more settled.

It just seems so against every policy or experience ive had personally with them in the past.

From their wesbite......

Rehoming

The health and happiness of every dog is at the heart of all our efforts and we try to find each and every dog in our care a loving home for life. We never destroy a healthy dog.
sweetie
hug.gif to you and your family.

I don't think DT mentioned putting the dog to sleep. err.gif
Elainew
DT avoid pts dogs by not normally taking in agressive ones, but he's there now! They have a site in Salisbury specifically for the unrehomeable, set apart from the main site, where dogs run together.
Dalsmum
Did you get any paperwork from Dog's Trust when you handed him over?

I wonder if perhaps they took him to assess him before accepting him but, having assessed him, are unable to take him.
ktbabe
QUOTE(Elainew @ 12th Aug 2008, 3:10 pm) *

DT avoid pts dogs by not normally taking in agressive ones, but he's there now! They have a site in Salisbury specifically for the unrehomeable, set apart from the main site, where dogs run together.


I thought this too! I could swear I read something about an area they have like a sanctuary...I wasn't sure where it was though.


He is a cross breed...springer/cocker cross. 3 years old.


And no DT never mentioned getting him pts, we looked into that via our vet practice as a sort of 'last resort'. My husband has wanted to get him pts for a long time because of the aggression towards our kids. I have been putting it off for so long as i love that dog to pieces, and then dogs trust agreed to take him. I felt so relieved.

And now im just scared. For him and for us. We cant have him back here its just too risky with the kids. Not to mention it just cost us £40 in diesel and a £30 donation. I honestly cant afford right now to pick him up. err.gif


I just had a voicemail from them asking when im picking him up...which is strange because i never said i would be.

This is just a mess. I don't know what to do any more. There are no other options for us and the dog.
anneski
I agree with Lisa, ring them and ask for some more details, after first checking your paperwork to make sure that they have agreed to take him for homing, not just for assessment. How is he being aggressive there, when it was just children previously, is what I'd be particularly wanting to know unsure.gif
Elainew
I think I would contact DT Head Office, explain the situation, explain you have been completely up front, you have handed over donation - as far as I can see, he is DT responsibility now!
Bevd
Did you get any paperwork when you handed him over and made your donation?
dbpayne
I really feel for you and the dog sad.gif it does sound like a confusing situation

I know how difficult it is to coem to the decision to offer your dog a better quality of life, having tried every other option, and how you feel relieved afterwards that the dog will be taken care of and matched up to the perfect home. To suddenly get a call saying you must take the dog back must be heartbreaking.

Have you actually spoken with DT since the first call? It sounds like you really need to have a word, explain your financial position.

I have three spaniels, there are a few breed specific rescues that would probably be happy to help if there was a way for you to get the dog back?

Good luck xxx
ktbabe
When I asked yesterday about his apparent aggressiveness they said he would growl when they went near his kennel...but said they did manage to feed him. And that for most part he was lay in his basket and wouldnt go out (im guessing they mean outside? im not sure as i didnt see the kennel he was put in...they took him off me at the door to the kennels).

As for paperwork, I was given a receipt which was for the donation - he was due a booster and they said they would do it for a donation of £30, it states on there:

supporter number
my details
amount recieved £30
payment type: cash

description: donation for booster for handover

then a thank you from the rehoming team.
shortl
This is all very odd, as is the only form of paper work the receipt unsure.gif
Is there anyway, like someone suggested, to phone head office, and perhaps find out where the sanctuary is, and get him placed there?

I just find it very very odd they demand you pick him up unsure.gif
Elainew
I think a lot more work should be done with him before he's assigned to the sanctuary - it's the place of last resort, he needs to be assessed by a behaviourist.
KatieBurns
What an awful situation to be in after you thought that you had sorted it all out as well!

To me if Dog Trust have taken him it is then their problem to sort, but it would be awful if he was to be put down when he is a healthy dog.

What sort of agression does he have, has he ever been agressive towards adults or is it only children?

This caught my attention as have had spaniels all my life and have previously rehomed a cocker that was to be put down due to agression and this sounded pretty similar.

All the best, big hugs
ktbabe
He did go through a stage of growling at me...which oddly enough was when i was pregnant...I started thinking he hated me or something unsure.gif But after getting advice from the vet and searching for a dog trainer, that cured that problem and he was fine and nevevr growled at me again. But the growling at the kids remained...even if they were in a different room behind a stairgate...he would just sit there growling at them. showing all his teeth. It was more so the younger kids who were under 5 years old at the time. The older kids were never really a problem. Maybe he was jealous of the younger ones. I can count on one hand the amount of times he snapped at them when they got too close to him...it was like a warning. So i had to keep him outside fulltime in the day. We brought 2 kennels that are waterproof and warm and he was always let in at night when the kids were safely tucked up in bed.

I really honestly believe that whatever he is doing now is only because he is scared. I think if they just gave him a few days he would settle in just fine. If he was so aggressive then there was no way he would have jumped up the woman at DT that took him off me, wagging his tail. He would have started growling the moment i handed her his lead. This is just so frustrating because i cant get ANY answers out of them. I just tried calling them twice and got their answering machine.
spud
What an awful situation hug.gif

I'm not sure what I'd do in your situation but it may be worth having a chat to someone like Cynthia from NESSR who rehomes springers and cockers from all over the UK, maybe she has a safe place for him?

Sorry I can't be more help sad.gif
sarah2482
I wonder whether his previous home (sorry, I can't remember the whole story but presume he was a rescue boy?) had small children (under 5) and he was neglected / hard-done-by when 'Mum' got pregnant again? Perhaps another baby was too much with a dog as well and so they got rid of him? Which would obviously mean that he would associate small children and pregnant women with neglect?

I'm just wondering unsure.gif

Such an awful situation. I do hope you get it sorted out.

I'm slightly concerned that DT would be happy to send him back to a home where he is agressive towards your own children, with full knowledge that the end result may well be pts (which I can completely understand you have few other options if they cannot help you sad.gif ) I thought the whole POINT of them was to provide an alternative?

This is awful because it is not your fault at all, yet you are in this quandary sad.gif
dogmadmum
I cannot understand how dt can ask you to come and take him back, obviously they will have the paperwork saying why you needed him rehoming i would phone them and ask for the manager and tell him /her upfront there is no way you can take him back.
nikirushka
I would say it would depend on the paperwork - but you haven't had any err.gif

Just going by when I signed Fletcher over to SYESSR, they had me sign the handover contract which stated that if he ever shows any unexpected aggression then he is to come back to me.
Sea Pigeon

Perhaps this is an aggression that is worse when a dog is restrained such as on the lead or in a crate. We had a similar problem with a Border Collie that we have kept as I did not think him easily rehomable. He is normally fine when loose. These dogs seem to be very worried when they can't get away.
We also had a Spaniel that would snap if someone held their hand out whilst he was on the lead. Again he was fine off lead.
fifer1
We have no spaces at all for rehab dogs at the moment, but I have heard of this place just today who work with similar cases.

http://www.spiritofthedog.org.uk/index.html

Please ask for their help, quickly!
dorothy
This certainly sounds like fear aggression and i do hope you can get someone who will retrain this poor boy.It's a shame you are so far away as i was going to suggest Battersea.
Akitas
It sounds to me like a defensive reaction to fear of small children. My gsd is nervous of small children as they smell funny, sound alarming and behave unpredictably. With calm, well behaved children he settles down quickly but with screachy kids we simply keep him separated. This need not be a problem if the right home can be found, with experience and either older kids or no kids?

A lot of younger kids alarm me as well so I can't say I blame him. wink.gif

It does sound a little odd that DT would ask you to pick him up but I don't know enough about the workings of rescues to know for sure.
ktbabe
Thanks for all the replies. I had 2 phone calls from them this morning, One was a missed call at 9.30am the other was at 8.30am where they left a voice mail that he is still being aggressive and not settling and could I please phone them back.

I have sent an email to the head office asking their advice.
Dalsmum
It sounds as if his aggression is preventing them working with him, if he is growling when they approach the kennel. Obviously there responsibilty is to their staff.

However I think you are entitled to a full explanation of the situation, not just a phone message to pick him up.
doggroomer
What an awful situation. How can they be asking you to collect him back when he's been signed over?

I've found with a number of Cockers I've groomed over the years that growling is just one of their 'pleasures' and it really doesn't mean they're aggressive. I fostered a Cocker for about a year as her elderly owner was having health problems and couldn't cope with her. She spent a lot of her time growling. Every time one of my cats rubbed around her, she would growl. I have to say it did irritate me a bit as she did it so much, but she never did any more than growl.

Hope you can get it sorted out without having to resort to pts.

Chris

ktbabe
Could this just get any worse sad.gif

I just received a call from the head office, who didnt really give me many answers. Just that hes still being aggressive with the staff when hes IN the kennel. They have managed to get him to go out into the run today and go to the toilet AND get him back into the kennel successfully. I thought this was progress, but no they still want him out of there. She basically said if we dont pick him and he continues to be this 'unhappy' they they would have to put him to sleep.

I have tried so hard with this dog but it ended up with a choice between the dog or my kids safety. Now it feels like i am being forced into a corner where i HAVE to have this dog back into the home with my kids. I really truly do not want him put to sleep, he is such a lovely loyal dog. Right now hes just scared with all these people he doesnt know in a kennel he is unfamiliar with. He needs one on one treatment to build up the trust and I thought thats what dogs trust did...the name kinda gave it away. Obviously I was very wrong. Now I am stuck between a rock and a hard place with no other options available to me.


sad.gif
sarah2482
This is awful and frankly I'm appalled that they are happy to pretty much force you to take him back, when they know the reasons why you were forced to hand him over in the first place. Imagine if they forced you to take him back and he bit one of your children? But I imagine that wouldnt be their problem then mad.gif
ktbabe
Odd, I got this email whilst on the phone to them...(removed the names incase it gets me in trouble)

QUOTE
Dear Mrs *name*

Thank you for your email. Staff are very sympathetic with your situation; however the dog’s welfare is severely compromised in a kennel situation and the staff urgently need to speak to you regarding finding a solution to help the dog. Please either contact the centre directly (*number*) or contact the Assistant Field Director, *name*, who has left you a message on your answer machine. Her number is *number*.

Yours sincerely

*name*
PA to Director of Field Operations




Dogs Trust - A Dog Is For Life



Shadowz
I imagine they will pts if you dont pick him up.
They will argue that he is not mentally healthy.
Tough situation and I dont think he deserve to be pts
clairen
their adverts state they never put a healthy dog down! i'm shocked to read this - any dog and many a dog would and could get or seem aggressive in this situation?! surely the staff have seen this before and should be able to deal with it and help the dog? do they not have behaviourists in to assess/work with?
Shadowz
QUOTE(clairen @ 13th Aug 2008, 3:53 pm) *

their adverts state they never put a healthy dog down! i'm shocked to read this - any dog and many a dog would and could get or seem aggressive in this situation?! surely the staff have seen this before and should be able to deal with it and help the dog? do they not have behaviourists in to assess/work with?


But in their eyes he might not be mentally healthy.

Im not saying its right cause I dont think it is but I can almost guarantee that its
the excuse they will use.
spud
I'm gobsmacked that the rescue is finding a scared dog, albeit growly, such a challenge. sad.gif

Maybe the rescue is struggling with the influx of dogs at the mo- like everywhere else - but that shouldn't excuse anything.

I can also understand why it isn't good to have him around kids if he gets so stressed and that it's hard after you've said your goodbyes to him.

Have you rung Cynthia from NESSR for a chat- she really is lovely and she has fosters all over the country- maybe there is a child free one out there where he can be assessed properly in a less stressful environment?

I really feel for you. Hang in there it'll get sorted somehow hug.gif
clairen
QUOTE(Shadowz @ 13th Aug 2008, 3:56 pm) *

But in their eyes he might not be mentally healthy.

Im not saying its right cause I dont think it is but I can almost guarantee that its
the excuse they will use.



i quite agree - surely they'd do a mental health assessment though to assertain if he can be rehabilitated? sad.gif
ktbabe
Claire I honestly thought they would have the means and facilities to deal with aggressive behaviour. What about the dogs they get as strays? I find it so hard to believe they have never dealt with a dog like this. The fact they seem to be giving up on him a day after he was put there makes me so sad. I was (and still am) more then willing to help him settle in there, but they wont let me near the kennels.

The only options I have now are to let them put him to sleep, or bring him home and risk him attacking my kids which would end up with him being put to sleep. No other rescue will take him in if dogs trust have 'abandoned' him. I feel like I could scream.
Shadowz
Have u tried phoning the rescues recommended on here to ask if they can take him ?
I would start phoning around to try and find him a diffrent place to go.
clairen
QUOTE(ktbabe @ 13th Aug 2008, 4:00 pm) *

Claire I honestly thought they would have the means and facilities to deal with aggressive behaviour. What about the dogs they get as strays? I find it so hard to believe they have never dealt with a dog like this. The fact they seem to be giving up on him a day after he was put there makes me so sad. I was (and still am) more then willing to help him settle in there, but they wont let me near the kennels.

The only options I have now are to let them put him to sleep, or bring him home and risk him attacking my kids which would end up with him being put to sleep. No other rescue will take him in if dogs trust have 'abandoned' him. I feel like I could scream.



oh sweetheart hug.gif i can see exactly the questions you are asking and i so wish i could answer them!

i agree they must see this all the time and there must be some way of assessing him???!

never before have i heard of a dog being asked to be taken back 'or else' sad.gif
AnnS
Maybe a totally daft idea but could you muzzle him, short term, at home when the kids are about?

Hope you get this sorted out, if it were me and he had to be pts I'd rather it was with me than strangers.

AnnS
ktbabe
QUOTE(Shadowz @ 13th Aug 2008, 4:01 pm) *

Have u tried phoning the rescues recommended on here to ask if they can take him ?
I would start phoning around to try and find him a diffrent place to go.


I think this is my next port of call. I'm going to have to call a few places and explain everything and see if anyone can help us.

If anyone here has any suggestions for places that might be able to help with my problem, please let me know. I'm going to track down Cynthia from NESSR (is she registered here?) and maybe direct her to this post to see if she can help in any way.
spud
I think lizzie23 on here fosters and transports for NESSR.

They have a website...
http://www.nessr.net

and no is: 01670 760346

Cynthia was fantastic when my friend had to rehome her working cocker last year. The dog had been turned down for a place at breed rescue but got herself in foster with Cynthia and found a new home there. Ring and explain the situation; that you've had to rehome because she gets stressed and growly around your children and that she's now so stressed in kennels DT are concerned for her welfare.

Let us know how you get on hug.gif

Ed to add, my friend was based in Leicester- they did a transport run for her dog up to foster in Morpeth so they do home all over.
ktbabe
Thank you spud. I have now sent an email to her and praying so hard they can help.


Does anyone know of any other places I can try?

Thanks!
PennyB
QUOTE(spud @ 13th Aug 2008, 3:58 pm) *

Have you rung Cynthia from NESSR for a chat- she really is lovely and she has fosters all over the country- maybe there is a child free one out there where he can be assessed properly in a less stressful environment?


I would try here as well as they have expereince with all sorts of spanielly things
lisa73
I am actually totally gobsmacked at all this err.gif I really did think that the DT were true to their word with the rescue and rehabilitation of longer term dogs and believed they had a good support network for animals landing in their care and behaviourists etc to help the dogs adapt. This is one of the reasons ive always supported them and been a huge advocate.

Im also horrified as I know we have sent harder to home poundies to the center nearest to you as they were under threat of euthanasia and they said they could facilitate them and now the not so nice cogs are turning in my head.

For goodness sake we are a tiny rescue and we have had dogs come into our care and go into our kennels which are a private boarding facility with hired staff behave like this for weeks let alone 24-48hrs. err.gif We have had dogs that have taken 4-5 weeks to get out of kennels and trust us enough to allow us in alongside them we have had to resort to trapping down in one part or another whilst food is put in and the kennels cleaned out.

The poor dog has had a huge change and obviously already has trust issues why is nobody recognising this and working with him to make things better instead of trying to force him back into an environment where people have already tried their best and cannot make things right for him.

In a situation like this if the owner was known we may liase with them to try and find out how to settle the dog if there was anything that we were doing that could be causing more undue stress ie our approach, handling etc and if anything was known that may help pacify through the adaptation but we would never ask them to take the dog back.

I am truly truly sorry you are going through this and hope you can find someone to help you make it right for this poor boy. hug.gif

DT do have an account on DP maybe you could email them the thread and ask them to respond and further explain the reasoning as to why an otherwise healthy dog who needs behaviour work can now find himself under threat of pts when they already had an outline of the circumstances and only 48hrs to adapt.

Sorry but im just totally err.gif
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