We've had such a shock. Archie had a small swelling on his nose last week and when I lifted his gum (very gently as he wasn't very keen) I could see that his upper gum was very swollen and exuding matter. At the vets they suggested it was probably an absess but he was admitted for further examination and xrays plus a biopsy and after a day spent mostly asleep as they cleaned and probed him, Archie came home a week ago and made a good recovery. I was told that I had to wait 5 days for results of the histology of the biopsy but to be honest I'd forgotton all about it as he seemed as right as rain, the swelling had gone down and I presumed it was an absess.

Then last night we had the bombshell. Squamous cell tumour of the upper jaw, with the jaw already eaten away to a degree and the prognosis not good. Apparently its invasive but slow growing and they give him 6-8 months which they admit is fairly optimistic.

We've only had him 1 1/2 years and he is the most perfect dog you could ever want. 100% with people, dogs, cats, poultry and the most loving companion ever. He is 10 in November but never stops running as he's a german shorthaired pointer. He's black and quite unlike any other gsh pointer I've ever seen.

He is so happy with us and life seems so unfair to have this happen to him.

Has anyone else had experience of this disease.

no experience sorry but loads of
---Aileen

Sorry, forgot to say, this is the lovely Archie shortly after he came to us from Happy Landings in Shepton Mallet. He had lived with a family of 4 small children for 7 years until their circumstances changed and he came into rescue.

No experience of that but just wanting to send good wishes for Archie and for you

Has the vet talked about any possible treatments at all?

I've just had a quick google (jeez, google really is my friend at the mo ) and came across a swhere it said that if the tumour is in the front of the mouth (which Archie's must be as you mentioned it was just under his nose) then things are much better than if its at the back. From the site - "if the tumor is located in the front of the mouth there is a very good prognosis as surgery can be curative".

If you want the link I'll give it to you but I've not put it here as there are some graphic pics and you might not want to see them.

So sorry about the bad news.

Oh Archie you are so cute you sound so lovley.
Just wanted to send you love and tell you to be strong everyday count's and he is lucky to have you as his mummy
Fingers crossed that he will give you lots more happy loving time's xxxxxxxxxxx

So sorry!

sorry about your news
hugs all

Thanks so much for all your good wishes.

The vet said that in the position its in there is nothing that can be done to remove it surgically. They suggest steroids and palliative care which is what we have had to opt for. There would be a very expensive option of radiotherapy which would be once a week for 4-6 weeks involving a general anaethestic each time in order to administer the radiotherapy. Unfortunately the nearest centre for this would be over 100 miles away in London and the outcome of possibly a few more months would not seem to justify the trauma to Archie nor the expense.

We have sadly come to the conclusion that we must take the vets advice and keep him as comfortable as possible for as long as possible. They seem to think that with this disease the prognosis is that Archie will stay well for most of the time and then there will be a sudden deterioration Obviously we'll have to keep an eye on his eating to make sure that his mouth doesn't get painful and will do anything to ensure he has a pain free time from now on.

He was chewing on a stick on his walk today so I can see that at the moment he isn't feeling any pain in his mouth but that is my big worry that he will have pain there without me realising

Thank goodness he doesn't know anything of this and will keep going in his inimitable way while we carry the burden of knowing what is ahead.

Yes, thank goodness they don't know. I had this very same conversation with Marc tonight about Wallace

It's all just cack.

I have no experience of the condition that your baby has, but I do have experience of rescuing a dog only to learn less than 2 years of having him that we only had a number of months left too

At the time I didn't have a computer and the likes of DP, so we pretty much went along day by day not actually *acknowledging* what was going on as I suppose we really didn't believe *that day* would ever come. Ignorance is bliss I guess

I'm so sorry that the prognosis isn't good for your boy and I'm so sorry that you have had such a short time with him so far Life is so so cruel

Enjoy and treasure whatever time you have left together

I'm so sorry

katherine

XXX

So sorry to hear this

i have thought long and hard before posting - this is what my Border Collie Biggles had and in the same place as your boy

We only knew about Bigg's as he had a nosebleed 2 days in a row and took him in to check for grass seeds in his nose !

On a positive note - Biggs was with us for quite a while after diagnosis - i am purposly not putting any specific timespans as there is no way to compare as each dog / each tumour are very different. I can also reassure you that at no point did he ever seem in any discomfort with his face - and infact remained very much the boy we knew and loved for the majority of his time with us

Other than that there is not a lot that i need to tell you as - every dog / tumour is unique so no point in comparing the outcomes - however i do send you and Archie big hugs

Try to focus on the time you have now rather than what you will be missing - fit in as many special moments as you can

And if you do want to chat anytime then PM me and i'll send you my mobile number
The great thing about DP is we are all here for you and everyone is so supportive - keep in touch xxx

Thank you so much for this. The vet did mention nose bleeds but I can't quite remember in what context. May I just ask, did you give him steroids? Also, did you give him wet rather than dry food.

No experience, thank doG, and hope I never do

Just to you and Archie.

So sorry to hear the news.

I have had something similar with a Scotty, and it was kept in check (not cured) by cryotherapy every 3-6 months, done under sedation. It didn't stop it growing, but it stopped the visible bit from getting bigger, and stopped it from ulcerating and causing pain on eating.

Obviously I am not an expert, and it may not be suitable for your dog, but could be worth asking the vet to see if it is available. If I remember right (it was 10-12y ago) it was not a frequently used treatment, but it did seem to help.

Emma

Yed Bigg's did have steroids but only for a short time as his symptoms then changed due to the tumour and he swapped onto a different medication

He had his same dried food as always but we used to soak it more so it was softer and easier for him

Hope Archie is feeling well and am sending him big hugs and some for you too

I'm going through exactly this with Ollie at the moment so completely empathise with you.
We had thedecision of having surgery to be honest it all happened so quickly that we didn't really have a choice not to, anyhow, after surgery it was a case of waiting to see if it grew back and then deal with accordingly.

It grew back and very quickly, it appears to have stopped growing where it is visible now but like you, we also know that it will still be spreading elsewhere, I thought I'd lose Ollie really quickly and for the first few weeks i watched and waited and felt constantly sick, and well, to be honest in himself he's absolutely fine, he's showing no signs of being ill so I have given myself a huge kick up the jacksy and am now enjoying every second of every day I had with him, it was his 1st Gotcha Day last week.

I just wanted to share with you that someone else understands that the waiting is awful and offer you a hug from someone that knows what it's like.

BevD I'd really appreciate a PM with the link if you don't mind.

So sorry you're going through this with Ollie and after even less time with him than we've had with Archie You sound very positive and up beat and I really admire you for being like this

"I have had something similar with a Scotty, and it was kept in check (not cured) by cryotherapy every 3-6 months, done under sedation. It didn't stop it growing, but it stopped the visible bit from getting bigger, and stopped it from ulcerating and causing pain on eating."

We were'nt offered surgery apart from the initial examination so feel that we must now just wait it out but I will enquire about the cryotherapy. Haven't heard of it I must admit and I would have thought my vets would have mentioned it if it were an option as they did mention the radiotherapy.

After the initial desperate reaction and the constant thoughts of his limited time with us I am now trying to put it to the back of my mind a bit more as he certainly seems just the same as he ever was. The only thing is we're supposed to be going to Dartmoor at the end of September to start walking the 2 Moors Way and this is now a becoming a big fixture in my mind. Will he be well enough to walk 4/5 hours a day? What if he is well but not quite well enough to walk that distance every day? The worst scenario - he really isn't up to coming at all but still enjoying life? How could I go without him and yet 3 other people are relying on me to go to Dartmoor and the holiday is all paid for.

Obviously his welfare comes first but I somehow wish I hadn't planned a walking holiday with the dogs this year

I've just had a bit more time to digest things than you and also have a lot of really great supportive friends who are very understanding, when you get past the initial shock and the what if's and but's you start to think things through more logically, well I did ,
I just want Ollie to be happy and comfortable, I don't want him to be in any pain and I made the decision that when I think he is in pain I will let him go peacefully because I don't want him to suffer, when I was able to think clear enough past the shock of it all and could make this decision I sort of became calmer in myself and accepting of it I suppose you could say.

Don't get me wrong I watch him like a hawk and I'm constantly checking and monitoring him, I think something like this makes you more than a little paranoid, I've talked things over thoroughly with my vet, who is great and she agrees with the decision that I made to let Ollie enjoy himself as much as he can and we'll decide together when the time is right to let him go with dignity, it took two or three visits before I could actually bring myself to ask about the long term consequences of this illness so trust me it does take a while for things to sink in .
I even have days where I wonder if they have got things right, yesterday he was running as fast as my five year old welshie chasing squirrels in the woods and I found myself thinking how can a dog with cancer do that?
But deep down I know its there and it's something I do struggle to accept on some days, as I'm sure you will to, take the strength from your friends and other supportive forum members and you'll get through this for Archie's sake and with his best interest's at heart.

Funnily enough I live in the middle of the two moors way, and I expect he'll be fine for a walking holiday, you just have to judge things at the time, I was convinced 6 weeks ago that Ollie would not be with me at the Cold Wet Nose Show or for his Gotcha day, and I mean really convinced, the way he was running yesterday I'd like to think he'll be with me for a while longer, I expect Archie will surprise you.

keep positive

----Aileen

I thought I would update everyone on Archie's situation.

Apparently at his first exploratory op the vet "omitted" to do an xray and this only came to light a week ago when I went to get some more steroids and was just asking what to expect in the next few months. The reception staff told me that someone would ring me back to discuss things and it was during this conversation with one of the vets that she went to look at the xrays to discover the extent of the tumour and discovered that none had been taken

He then had to be readmitted last friday and sedated to do the xrays and after a days in the vets I went to pick him up and see what the situation was. Apparently the tumour still seems to be local and as far as can be seen hasn't spread to his chest This has lead the vet to suggest that their visiting surgeon may agree to remove as much of the upper jaw as is necessary and therefore save his life subject to doing some more xrays of lymph glands and more chest xrays.

He is going in again on Thursday lunchtime to be sedated for more xrays and then if the visiting vet is happy that there has been no spread he will remove any suspicious jawbone and hopefully wil have performed a miracle

I still find it unbelievable that if I hadn't made a casual enquiry about future symptoms that we may never have found out that no one took xrays and in 6 months time we would have lost him just cos of a simple error I can't wait until thursday now and just hope and pray that nothing shows on the xrays and the op can go ahead and give him a full and happy life.

keeping things crossed for Thursday
----Aileen

and to you and Archie. I'll be crossing everything on Thursday

Wow! So this takes us back to what I found on google when you first posted

Fingers crossed here for the miracle

Well Archie went into the vets on Thursday lunchtime for more xrays and if they showed the cancer hadn't spread the visiting specialist vet was going to cut away the tumour from Archie's upper jaw. He was supposed to go to theatre at 2 p.m. and I was expecting a call at about 4 p.m. but when it came it was to say that the xrays were clear ( - so relieved) and they were just about to start. Several anxious hours later they rang at 7 p.m. to say all was finished and because of the lateness he would stay in overnight and hopefully come home the next day.

Unfortunately he wasn't well enough to come home today as the vets feel he is still in a lot of pain as they had to cut a large portion of his jaw away and they are keeping him on morphine until he seems more comfortable. He won't eat at the moment (can't say I blame hime) so I think they will keep him at the hospital until he has managed to eat/suck something, poor lad. We are all so worried about him as it feels so awful for him to be there on his own in pain and caged but we can't bear to go and see him and then come away without him

Please send healing vibes his way cos this isn't going quite the way we hoped and he isn't bouncing back as quickly as we would have liked.

Thank you

Healing thoughts heading your way. I hope you see some improvement tomorrow

I hope this works for Archie, it sounds like a really major operation so I expect he'll be off colour for a while, fingers crossed for a speedy recovery and then the complete all clear.

---Aileen

Well he's home

He looks very bright although his mouth has completely dropped one side, to be expected. He just keeps making this awful crying noise all the time All the way home in the car and even now we've been home an hour he's stilll doing it - I think it may just be his reaction to see his loved ones again Apart from that he looks fine and is running about just as normal. Remarkable really considering what he has been through.

I didn't tell him though - no balls for 3 months

Has he been sent home with strong painkillers?
What did the vet say about his jaw, will the jaw grow back or will the part that's been removed be permanently missing, do you know exactly how much they have removed, is there a visible part that is missing or is it all internal, sorry for so many questions I'm just really curious, sorry.

He's been sent home with Tramadol twice a day. But today has been a nightmare cos he hasn't stopped crying from the minute we picked him up and is very restless, constantly licking himself and unable to settle. We rang the vet at lunchtime and they suggested we gave him an extra tramadol but it didn't seem to make any difference and he continued the crying through the afternoon. We've taken him out for several short walks on the lead and this is the only time he's been quiet until now when I suddenly thought I would try giving him his tea and lo and behold he gobbled it down has settled down and is silent for the first time The alternative was to give him a morphine patch which would last 3-5 days but hopefully he we may not have to go down this route.

His jaw won't grow back and there are no wires or anything to close the gap Apparently as long as the front and back of the jaw remains the gappy bit will just sort of consolidate and obviously it has been stitched over with gum. His face on that side does look very odd (as though he's left his teeth in a glass) but apparently that will gradually get better and as I told the vet, we love him even more for looking a little strange

The vet is happy with the op and says they left 1 cm clear margin round the tumour so hopefully he should live a normal lifespan - fingers very tightly crossed as I wouldn't want to put any dog through what he has gone through lightly.

I didn't think you'd taken things lightly, sorry if it came across that way it wasn't my intentions

I was just curious because of what I'm going through with Ollie.

Fingers crossed the Tramodol takes effect and he doesn't need the morphine cause that will wipe him out.

Please keep updating it's interesting to see how he's doing.

[quote name='selina' date='23rd Aug 2008, 5:49 pm' post='2580175']
I didn't think you'd taken things lightly, sorry if it came across that way it wasn't my intentions


It didn't occur to me to take offence

Its all quiet here

Just gone back to your original post and see that you have been through similar surgery with Ollie. Whereabouts in his mouth was the tumour? (My turn to ask questions ). So sorry to hear its grown back again and would be horrified if that happened in this case. Was it the same type of tumour?

Here's wishing Ollie a long and happy life.

It was completely different in Ollie's case, his lump was growing on the side of his nose internally under the skin and he went in to the vets purely for an exploratory and to see if it was an abcess around his tooth root, the vet couldn't get a needle in to take a biopsy as the lump was so hard so she put him under GA to get x-rays and found a solid bony growth surrounding his tooth root, she rung me to say this was very unusual for bone growth to have grown so quickly and could she do the operation there and then to make an incision in his mouth to see what exactly was going on. Of course I agreed, i didn't really have time to think about it but wouldn't have done differently if I had.

What she found was a large boney type growth completely encircling his tooth root, she had to remove the tooth with the growth attached it was the only way, so no actual jaw removal just tooth, once it was out and could examine it better she said she hadn't seen anything like it, solid bone with a pulpy inner.
It was sent off for analysis, the pathology lab said that there were several cells present they had never encountered before and they were passed around the lab for analysis and inspection , but there was squamous type cancer cells present also so they felt the unknown cells were cells migrating into cancer cells.
The general verdict was with the squamous cells present it would have already spread to his jaw etc.

I had the choice of removing cells (jaw) around where the tumour was removed from or watching and waiting, with Ollie's age (12) and the fact that he was having a new lease of life I decided to watch and wait, within a few weeks the lump was returning so we accepted the fact that it was an aggressive tumour and there was little we could do, BUT the lump now seems to have disappeared, I can feel the tiniest of lumps but much less than three weeks ago and he is absolutely thriving to the point he's regaining weight again, it's a mystery but I've just accepted it.

I was advised to put him on flaxseed oil from Holland and Barrett and to give him banana twice a week as these are both cancer fighting and he also has selenium with vits A, C and E as he was showing dementia symptoms at the start of all this, all symptoms have now disappeared and he's on no medication from the vet just the natural stuff. I'm happy but more importantly so is he.

Now you can see why I was asking so many questions

Just wanted to send you and your baby lots and lots of