The BBC are planning a new series called Puppy Borstal. From what I have been told by someone who spoke to the BBC about it, the programmes will be filmed at the same location and with the same trainers as Dog Borstal.

Where I want everybodies help is to ensure that this does not cause real harm to both the puppies in the programme and to the puppies owned by viewers.

The techniques used in Dog Borstal are not always the most positive, they include aversives such as spraying dogs with water pistols and using shaker bottles at dogs. If used incorrectly with puppies these kind of techniques can spell disaster, causing fear agression problems and all sort of phobias. I am also concerned as to whether they will expect the poor puppies to sleep in the kennels alone which could lead to separation anxiety.

Please could as many people as possible email the programme researcher explaining the problems with using the non positive training methods used by the programme on puppies and ask them to use trainers who only use positive kind methods and not any of the aversive/punishment techniques currently emplyed on Dog Borstal. The puppies they are looking for are only 8 to 12 weeks old and should not be subjected to any of this kind of nonsense.

The Researcher can be reached on will.fegen@bbc.co.uk

Please post here if you have written.

From BBC website: http://www.bbc.co.uk/showsandtours/beonash...y_borstal.shtml

QUOTE

many thanks

Sam

I'm certainly going to write to them about Puppy Borstal Sam

I have written

I've sent an email asking that they consider promoting Positive Training methods like clicker training and maybe look at using other trainers rather than just the 3 featured on Dog Borstal.

I'd love to see a different programme where they use fab trainers like Anne Bussey (WTs championship winner, and reward trainer) and maybe Steve Mann again, and a few others - they could take them from a few different areas of dog training - ie working trials, protection training, behavioural counselling, and have them all helping problem dogs with their methods, as opposed to DB methods.

Now that i'd love to see

Maybe you could write to them suggesting these trainers???

Puppy Borstal -that's sick! Poor puppies

and pups from 2 to 3 months!!! Poor babes!

have emailed

I have not followed the program religiously but from what I have seen the only harsh methods that have been used have been directed at the idiot owners not the dogs.

You may need to watch again, as aversives are used lots in the programme

Well in series 1 there was a full-grown golden retriever that was dragged some distance across tarmac by its lead (attached to collar) when it refused to walk...also the Weimaraner teenager dog that was alpha-rolled and possibly choked...in nearly every episode, the dogs are 'trained' by shaking a shake can in their face (usually with very bad timing); there have been dogs that have had cups of water thrown in the their face for barking at other dogs. And Mic's usual MO is agility (nothing wrong with that, except I believe he has done this with dogs that were too young for full agility...will he be making 3 month old puppies do the long jump...?).

Plus I really don't see how is it appropriate to put small puppies in a kennel (when they have only been used to being in a home) - if that is what they are planning to do. I should think that most of the problems people may have with pups such as housetraining, jumping up, play biting are issues that need to be addressed within the home environment, rather than in a stressful kennel environment.

I cannot see that puppy and borstal belong together. No puppy of 2-3 months can need 'borstal' After all they normally only go their home at two months.

Just emailed - Dislike DB anyway so have raised my concerns.

I do wonder if they are looking for 2-3 month old pups knowing that it will be a couple of months before they are filmed? - They may as well just put out an appeal for the laziest, most useless puppy owners in Britain - because that's what they are looking for.

I've sent off this email:

I write to complain with regard to this forthcoming programme, based upon concerns of the 'Dog Borstal' programme.

The general ethos of the trainers on Dog Borstal seems to often involve using aversive (punishment) strategies on difficult dogs. In Series 1 there was a full-grown golden retriever that was dragged some distance along the ground, on tarmac, by its lead (attached to collar) when it refused to walk...also in that series, a male Weimaraner teenage dog that was alpha-rolled and possibly choked...in nearly every episode, the dogs are 'trained' by shaking a shake can in their face (usually with very bad timing); there have been dogs that have had cups of water thrown in the their face for barking at other dogs. And Mic's usual MO is agility (nothing wrong with that, except I believe he has done this with dogs that were too young for full agility...will he be making 3 month old puppies do the long jump...?).

If Puppy Borstal is to be made in the same sort of format, I really don't think it appropriate to put small puppies in a kennel (when they have only been used to being in a home). I should think that most of the problems people may have with pups such as housetraining, jumping up, play biting are NORMAL puppy behaviour that need to be addressed within the home environment, rather than in a stressful kennel environment.

I would be very concerned to see immature pups subjected to the regime of this 'training' centre and suspect that if similar methods are employed, this will do more harm than good to the pup's long-term welfare and behaviour.

If I remember, the original programme came about with Robert Alleyne being asked if he thought it would work. Other types of trainers were asked to (what's the word - you know - see if they were right for the programme) but they weren't what was being looked for, which was basically "borstal" type trainers.

I know of one excellent trainer/behaviourist (can't say who ) who would have been great, but she was not "right" for the type of programme, if you get my drift.

It's all about bad dogs, after all..... Bad dogs, naughty pups, bad owners... I guess they decided they needed a tough 'arder looking trainer with attitude.

I'd love for another tv channel to make something, though...I'd watch it for sure!

Amber, good email!

Sam, just realised I quoted myself, meant to quote your reply!

I'd also like to see trainers who specialise in positive, fun, practical pet training and problem solving

I'm so glad I'm not the only one, I originally quoted myself instead of your reply earlier on!!

I also know a lady trainer who was 'not the right sort of trainer' - most likely the same person. She has also written in protest of Puppy Borstal.

I worry also that people will see a programme with 'quick fixes' and think that it will be that easy at home (which it never is) and even lazier peolpe will be tempted to get puppies than before.

Is that the episode when the Weimaraner attacked Mic? If so, I saw it and that was not an alpha role he simply pinned the dog to the ground to fend off the attack. The dog was a danger and was trying to bite him. From what I have heard the aggression was far more severe in the footage that didn’t get shown in the episode. What would you have preferred him to do, considering he had only a split second to react? What would you have done?

Several years ago I did some work rehabilitating ex-fight pit bulls and one thing I can say is that dealing with such severe aggression is not an easy job. I don't really think you can judge the situation from your armchair.

I'm sorry if my comments seem argumentative or harsh but I have read this thread (and others like it) and I do find it frustrating how so many people watch these training programs and criticize the methods and tactics used when all we are seeing is 60 minutes of the 300 plus hours of footage. You are only seeing what the editors want you to see and it is being edited for entertainment purposes.

If you don't like it, why don’t you vote with your feet and stop watching it!!

I did but that makes it difficult to join in the threads about it .
The problem with these programmes is that people watching will do things like pinning or using a choke becuase they saw it on TV. It's not that they're irresponsible for copying what they saw, or thought they saw, but that they don't know better. Its no good saying don't do this at home because people will , it's human nature.
Ali

This has been debated a gazillion times on here - and the Weimaraner episode in particular.

I would think that if the dog were *really* that 'dangerous' then it should have been muzzled.

[quote name='The General' date='7th Apr 2008, 4:05 pm' post='2403954']
Is that the episode when the Weimaraner attacked Mic? If so, I saw it and that was not an alpha role he simply pinned the dog to the ground to fend off the attack. The dog was a danger and was trying to bite him. From what I have heard the aggression was far more severe in the footage that didn’t get shown in the episode. What would you have preferred him to do, considering he had only a split second to react? What would you have done?


But they only showed what they did on tv. Joe Public believes what he sees. If you have an aggressive dog pin it to the ground. No amount of disclaimers on a tv screen will change that. It may be for entertainment but it could be very dangerous in the wrong circumstances - big stroppy dog and inexperienced owner.

On a local forum a great dane breeder has boasted how she saw this on telly and she did it to a very stroppy great dane that was returned to her because he was out of control, and, yah , it worked. So she now encourages every body else who has training problems to do it also.



Several years ago I did some work rehabilitating ex-fight pit bulls and one thing I can say is that dealing with such severe aggression is not an easy job. I don't really think you can judge the situation from your armchair.

I agree, but why show it to people in their armchairs, who don't know any better? These dogs are assessed before and during the training. If a dog is severely aggressive then they should be making a few minutes of tv about how to deal with it.



I'm sorry if my comments seem argumentative or harsh but I have read this thread (and others like it) and I do find it frustrating how so many people watch these training programs and criticize the methods and tactics used when all we are seeing is 60 minutes of the 300 plus hours of footage. You are only seeing what the editors want you to see and it is being edited for entertainment purposes.

If you don't like it, why don’t you vote with your feet and stop watching it!!



I don't watch it . But then I wouldn't be influenced to use these tactics any way. Unfortunately, many that do watch believe what they see. Which is that using an aversive on your dog gives results in a few minutes.

Perhaps if they did a series of programmes showing the progress over a few weeks it may give people a better understanding of what is involved to train, or retrain, a dog ( and very often the owner).

I'm dam sure if I was faced with an aggressive dog I would not be pinning it to the ground, upping the anti and getting closer to the dog. But then I don't dress like Rambo, act like an 'ard man and am not on the telly

I'm sure if the aggression was 'more severe' they would have shown it. They don't normally hold back especially when it comes to 'bad dog made good' scenarios.

Quote:
"Are you a new puppy owner in need of some help with training your naughty pup?
Fed up with your puppy biting and grabbing at your clothes? Finding it hard to toilet train? Had enough of the destruction caused when you leave the house? Is your puppy constantly jumping up and not coming back to you when you call it?
Don't worry - help is at hand. We are looking for puppies aged 2-3 months to take part in a television programme."


WTF! Puppies our usually only going to their new homes at 2 months, so how could anyone be having issues that need 'Borstal' to help already!!!!!

They would only be babies coming straight from their mother! They are a living creature not a machine, of courst they don't come programmed to go to the toilet where you want them.

And how could moving them to a strange environment teach them where to go to toilet in your house? Are they morons? (already know the people who go on will be!) And your puppy shouldn't be out before its had all injections which is 10-12 weeks, so how the hell could it be trained to come back when called, it shouldn't be off lead anyway yet.

Sorry, but the thought of this makes me angry, the poor little puppies.

Why don't they shoot it over 8 weeks, with the puppies coming once or twice a week to a well run puppy class/training. And also in the peoples homes, where they are putting the advice received each week into practice. The same problems could be addressed.

Thanks for all the comments so far, could we make sure though that this thread is not to resurrect the to Mick or not to Mick debate , think that is being done in other threads!!

If you feel strongly about Puppies that have only been with their new owners a week or two at the most being treated to the "Borstal" approach, please write to the BBC and let them know, but also make suggestions about improving it (as I am sure they will go ahead and do it anyway )

Agreed, I don't see what a pup of that age could possibly have done that would make someone desperate enough to send them somewhere like this.

Sorry, my fault

Already writen as have a lot of people I know.

I sent in an email asking for more information about Puppy Borstal and this is the reply I received last night...

That sounds encouraging, thanks for posting their reply.

It does sound hopeful ... I will keep my fingers crossed.

I don't trust them.
Linking it in any way with DB gives completely the wrong message, whatever methods they use in a "one off".

Pam

I agree, and also I wonder what trainers they are using. The usual shake, rattle and role crew.

I've never watched DB and wouldn't want to either after following the numerous threads on here. A friend assures me I'm not missing much, either.

I also know very little about puppy training but I sort of get the impression that Puppy Borstal could be like sending a toddler to a youth detention centre; both equally inappropriate for training/guidance purposes.

Perhaps they think that DB format is a bit worn and hope that they can boost their viewing figures from people tuning in to watch cute puppies....

ETA: I will drop a line to the BBC researcher - thanks SamW.

I absolutely agree that puppies do not need the type of corrective intervention that we see in Dog Borstal - and from the producer's reply, is seems that this isn't the case anyway.Are we jumping the gun here a bit?I agree that there's nothing wrong with asking exactly what will be going on here but I think we may be jumping to conclusions about the programme (which will be a one off by the sound of things) before we've even seen it in terms of some of the comments here.
Also, I think that it is only responsible to screen programmes where dogs are treated fairly, but I don't think there's anything currently on TV that comes close to the bad old days of a certain Mrs Woodhouse (choke chains and all!)I think that we all make our own minds up in terms of how to treat and train our dogs, and the differences of opinion about training on this site are ample proof here.We can get a bit 'holier than thou' when it comes to dogs generally.If somebody is going to be cruel, they will be I'm afraid - that's just their mindset - and no amount of positive programmes will change that.It may help people to make more positive choices, but at the end of the day, everyone does have choice in the matter.I actually like Dog Borstal, and can't say that I've felt discomfort in watching it.

I wonder if anyone had ever thought of making a DB for 'bad dog trainers'.Now that would make for interseting viewing .Any volunteers? . We need to know exactly what they propose to do with the so called 'training methods' before they put it on air .
Dog forbid one act of badly edited footage in a less than sympathetic manor used by a trainer, and the less knowledgable new puppy owners looking for tips might start to copy . Lets just hope their methods with the pups are different than some i have seen in the past.

The ad for volunteers to participate, did seem to emphasise things that would not really be addressed in a puppy training class (house training...destructive chewing).

And given the format of Dog Borstal, it is not really surprising that we jumped to the conclusion that puppy borstal would follow suit....I still think it's weird, but HOPEFULLY it will just be a one-off programme for the 'aaaaaahhhh' factor of the cute puppies and not a real 'training' programme in the vein of the normal Dog Borstal.

I re-emailed them on Monday, and have just received this e-mail:



That's better news (Assuming their alternative isn't Cesar Milan )

I've just had the same reply (started a thread on Chatter )

I think this thread shows the danger of jumping in before knowing all the facts! The programme makers are obviously seeking professional advice as to the best way to train puppies ie puppy classes. Personally I do not see a problem with such training methods as the shaker bottle used in Dog Borstal. Negative consequence associated with a negative action is a quick, effective way of stopping those actions. (i am not of course advocating any kind of physical punishment.) If the puppy programme encourages new puppy owners to take their pups along to training and socialisation classes that can only be a positive thing. I would suggest less 'jumping on high horses' and more gathering of facts in future.

I disagree, as do many others on here and in the professional dog training world. It can have all sorts of negative consequences, result in ticking time bombs of dogs who've lost their only way of communicating that something is wrong, and often simply results in the behaviour escalating or showing itself in different ways.

I would suggest more reading of people like Kay Lawrence, Jean Donaldson and less fixation with the rattle bottle, in future.

I think this comment shows the danger of airing programmes like Dog Borstal which use inappropriate and unpleasant training methods! The rattle a bottle stops an action ... the dog is supposed to work out how it should be behaving instead???

Ian Dunbar made a lot of sense donkeys years ago when he said, "There are a 1001 wrong things that our dogs can do .. and not that many right things ... so why keep it a secret? Show Fido what you want him to do and reward him for doing it." It's a much more productive way of training and actually builds the owner dog relationship ... rather than erroding it

I agree that once a dog has learnt which behavioural pattern is inappropriate they then have to be positively encouraged to display the correct behaviour. Obviously a dog cannot guess what is required of it without training and positive re-enforcement. I think the last poster is being very patronising suggesting that watching Dog Borstal or any other similar show overrides mine or others intelligence and common sense.

No-one has said that.

But ask in any rescue and you'll hear tales of dogs terrified by rattle bottles and water pistols. The general public often does take these programmes as purveyors of great dog training information - and dogs, as always, face the negative consequences of that flawed thinking.

I had the same reply.

Does that mean - we may not get erm the usual trainers ...

I suspect the programme makers may have considered other options to the usual because of the information they've been getting from concerned people, and if so, then well done them.

Perhaps if people hadn't expressed concern, the format would have been the same.

I have problems with the rattle bottle, esp. when one trainer said, when a dog messed itself when he shook the rattle, that he was glad it happened as he wanted the dog to react to show her fear. That is NOT good training, it is quick fix tv training.

And I for one would have a big problem with that, as would many others, including those who specialise in puppy training.

It was not my intention to be patronising so I apologise if it came across that way.

I still find it difficult to understand why anybody would prefer to startle a dog to stop a behaviour, rather than teach an incompatible behaviour and reward the dog for offering it. Positively encouraging the dog to display the correct behaviour once you have alarmed it with the rattle bottle seems a bit like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted ..the damage to trust and confidence has already been done.

oops edited spelling mistakes

But the public are heavily influenced by what they see Cesar Milan and DB trainers doing, especially if it is filmed in a way that makes it appear successful. They do adopt their confrontational, physically confrontational style of dog handling. CM often gets bitten or comes close to being bitten by the dogs he is handling (see the video of the Jack Russell who is afraid of motor bikes). Handling dogs in a confrontational way often results in the owner being bitten by his or her own dog. Influenced by CM and DB, they take risks they might otherwise think twice about.

Pluto