IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

> Training advice

Dogpages encourages owners to learn the skills to train their dogs with modern non-coercive methods and not to train with pain. Posts and advice given must reflect this policy.

For serious problems, owners should always seek good professional advice.

4 Pages V  1 2 3 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Frustration And Focus And Exercise
muttlover2
post 26th Mar 2012, 10:51 am
Post #1


Member
****

Group: Member
Posts: 1488
Joined: 11 Nov 11
Member No.: 54116



i have noticed that when dogs have issues that people will often advise walking less on DP.

This goes against most of what I've been brought up to think and I don't really want to open a whole can of worms here about levels of exercise as we've been there before and we all just have to agree to disagree, but I do have a specific question and concern that is if you restrict the exercise a lot with a dog who needs a lot - don't you risk them focussing MORE on whatever target they are obsessed with? And isn't it a lot harder to get attention with a frustrated dog?

I understand people who say that toys can whip up a dog - but the ones I've read about (and seen) are usually those that don't seem to get enough exercise and then get the whipping up stuff. So - to me -the exercise is still part of that equation in terms of the frustration.

I know that my dog is more responsive and calmer if he's had fun and been on a proper walk. When I first got him he was not well-muscled and stressed and it was hard to get any focus from him outside. I battled on through mainly because that's what I was taught and part of my background. I used to walk him ridiculous mileages onlead and it didn't take the edge off him. Things got so much easier when I could let him off and he could get some good running in though and as we had fun together and he had proper exercise things went in a good circle.

So what I'm saying is - i do imagine it depends on the individual dog but couldn't it increase frustration, lack of focus and attachment to obsessions to not get proper exercise in with highly energetic breeds and shouldn't we be careful before suggesting cutting down on exercise in these sorts of situations as there may be as many who could possibly be made worse with that advice?
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
coinsky
post 26th Mar 2012, 11:04 am
Post #2


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 11422
Joined: 16 Jun 05
Member No.: 14818



My dogs are much more stressy and generally a pain if they are not walked enough. ohno.gif

I haven't found any problems with them de stressing after even action packed type walks. Most of my walks do tend to be 2-3hours of trails and forest etc which the dogs are mooching along but even when we sometimes go to the field and have a high energy chasing frisbees for 40minutes, mine will come home and go to sleep. They aren't manic after it... unsure.gif



--------------------
http://www.pawtracks.co.uk/

For dog walking and pet sitting in Scottish Borders and Midlothian area.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Lindsay
post 26th Mar 2012, 11:10 am
Post #3


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 22934
Joined: 18 Sep 02
Member No.: 2829



sorry double posted


This post has been edited by Lindsay: 26th Mar 2012, 11:16 am
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Lindsay
post 26th Mar 2012, 11:15 am
Post #4


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 22934
Joined: 18 Sep 02
Member No.: 2829



Very good question smile.gif

My thoughts are that "it depends", and I find myself saying this more and more now rolleyes.gif lol.gif

Generally speaking, exercise is so important for mental and physical health, plus things like socialising - BUT I will also qualifiy that by saying that it has to be the right sort of exercise for the individual.

For example, my girl as a young BSD would go mad for her Kong on a rope, and I spent a while teaching her to think of this as her main huge amazing and incredible reward. I chose it and got her loving it .... easy as being a chasey girl she was well into the erratic bouncing it does. 'She lived to chase. I also used it to control her predatory chasing.

However I found that she would be unpredictable (only with other dogs) at certain times, when there seemed to be no real trigger, (and it was not related to her previous fear aggression after she'd been attaced) until I worked out that she was kind of over adrenalised and would tip over the edge sometimes and be a bit aggressive to other dogs. Only a few as I was able to work it out, but my it was hard to do wacko.gif

I really learnt something there about toys and "stress" and the effect that too much excercise (as in, high adrenalin related stuff) can have a negative effect. However this can easily be sorted by doing calm brainy exercises, such as tracking and searching as well as chasing biggrin.gif

What was so weird was that she'd happily let other dogs have her toy, but she would behave oddly at times such as just go for a dog with no reason, when she was full of adrenalin or anticipating her fun.

She is more restless when she's not had a walk - since my ankle she's had several consecutive days a week of no walks, and goes back to barking at cats, and generally not settling. I would say she "needs" her walks, every day, as esp. being an only doglet she socialises this way and reads her doggie newspapers.

She used to run and race and go mad, now she is more likely to trot, canter and speak to other dogs, but either way it's all important wub.gif



Lindsay
x

This post has been edited by Lindsay: 26th Mar 2012, 11:22 am
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
riotous_uk
post 26th Mar 2012, 11:20 am
Post #5


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 10438
Joined: 8 Nov 02
From: Hull, East Yorkshire
Member No.: 3186



if a dog is getting stressed because it is fearful to something in the environment, then I may suggest that the dog is convined to barracks for a while as that will allow the stress levels to drop, making the dog less likely to have an aggressive episode. However, clients are then told to exercise their dogs mentally to ensure that teh dog isn't bored and is tired.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
muttlover2
post 26th Mar 2012, 11:25 am
Post #6


Member
****

Group: Member
Posts: 1488
Joined: 11 Nov 11
Member No.: 54116



That's interesting Lindsay. But I would still push that question further. For example I have a slightly anxious and highly strung bc as you know. Now, when I got him he could easily tip over as you say and go OTT if playing or with balls etc. Now, he loves to play with other dogs with toys and games are games and he is much much better about these high adrenalin siutations.

Whilst I can see that a certain amount of avoiding of triggers etc was important in the old days, I find that the times where he doesn't have enough exercise and full of frustration or energy is the times where he is more likely to be chasey and stressy. (Like recovering from an op or injury or that type of situation). He is much much more likely to focus on chase objects outside of us at those times. If he gets enough exercise and controlled chasing in his normal routine (walk him about an hour and a half with a lot of games mixed in but a proper walk with distance and then he has separate smaller walks morning and evening) he is easy-peasy.

So I suppose although I recognise what you are saying, the question remains the same.

I wonder how much dogs are over-adrennalinned through over exercise and how many are underexercised and then have frustration that comes out or focusses on an object or whatever. And even a dog being throw a ball constantly and repetitively - I would question whether that on its own is not enough in terms of exercise - but actual walks are needed for exercise and to learn about the world. My dog seems to need a mix of the two and then he's very calm. But take the exercise away and he goes back to over-focussing on certain things.

This post has been edited by muttlover2: 26th Mar 2012, 11:27 am
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
celia
post 26th Mar 2012, 11:28 am
Post #7


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 12556
Joined: 26 Jan 04
Member No.: 7184



Mine get a mixture of long woods fields moors for 2 or 3 hours at the weekend then in the week they mostygo to the playing fields, combined nature reserve with a river, for ball games, socializing and generally this is about an hour and a bit.
If they go somewhere new they are more tired, even if they have had to spend longer on lead. They do a lot of thinking in new places . They will happily trade their favourite spots, such as the deer park, for being on lead.
I would say mine enjoy long walks at a variety of paces, and places, new things to investigate and being outside eating with their people .

Recently we found a climbing spot that is very rocky and high and both dogs enjoyed immensely just circling around us playing a sort of hide and seek. There wasn't a great deal of energy involved, just thinking and scrambling about up and down and then re-finding their humans and sitting down for a sausage.
A lot of our walks they are both free and off-lead the entire time and they have their rituals and expectations about each walk ; this one ends with an ice cream this one ends with the picnic blanket out this one involves the rivery bit etc etc.

My experience of having to restrict exercise, because of injury, has been that the advised very short walks of 20 minutes or worst one was vet saying only 10 minutes, resulted in a massive build up of expectation then frustration. Beth was better not going out at all than getting ready for a walk that turned out to be a poo trip and nothing more. Every now and then but very very rarely I will not take them out and give them a day's rest. They cope fairly well but are pretty demanding by evening time and take a long time to settle .
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
walkiesandtalkies
post 26th Mar 2012, 11:33 am
Post #8


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 6822
Joined: 1 Jan 07
Member No.: 26342



QUOTE(muttlover2 @ 26th Mar 2012, 11:51 am) *


So what I'm saying is - i do imagine it depends on the individual dog but couldn't it increase frustration, lack of focus and attachment to obsessions to not get proper exercise in with highly energetic breeds and shouldn't we be careful before suggesting cutting down on exercise in these sorts of situations as there may be as many who could possibly be made worse with that advice?



There are dogs who could and would be made worse by this - which is why it is so so important that dogs are treated as individuals and te reason for the behaviour problems are fully understood. For example as Lindsay has mentioned chasing, it is not always a case of the dog just lvoes chasing so it chases or because it's a certain breed or make up, sometimes dogs chase because they are stressed or because it has become and unhealthy obsession that isn't really someing they 'enjoy' or could possbily learn and or be in any way responsive around. It can be a bit like alcoholics ebing entirely fixated on their next drink and nothing else matters they don't necessarily actually enjoy the drink - they need it because they don't know how to function without it!

Adrenaline like that takedays to come down from if not longer and that means that the dog is NEVER really in a proper state of relaxation because if they are seeing their triggers everyday adn reacting, whether that be fear aggression or unhealthy chasing or fear of traffic or noise phobia then the adrenaline is going up evey day and never having the chance to come down, this creates physiological responses that are out of the animals control adn cerinly out of our control. So sometimes having a break from those triggers in what ever way (never mind the person if that is causing them great stress because they are not going to be functioning properly and in a good frame of mind to be clear about what they are doing if extremely stressed) Then it can give an important window of calming and so on.

It's pretty rare that advice for two sets of dog and owners with the same problem is going to be the same and when dealing with things on here we can only deal with the dogs that we are given info on and the info that we are given. Usually with anything big it is always given along side the advic that really you need to seea professional for exactly the reason that we can't know until we have all the info because each dog with each problem and the dog and owner combo is different.


--------------------
www.keepsakejewellery.co.uk

Handmade Pet Portrait and Keepsake Jewellery
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
coinsky
post 26th Mar 2012, 11:39 am
Post #9


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 11422
Joined: 16 Jun 05
Member No.: 14818



QUOTE
My experience of having to restrict exercise, because of injury, has been that the advised very short walks of 20 minutes or worst one was vet saying only 10 minutes, resulted in a massive build up of expectation then frustration. Beth was better not going out at all than getting ready for a walk that turned out to be a poo trip and nothing more. Every now and then but very very rarely I will not take them out and give them a day's rest. They cope fairly well but are pretty demanding by evening time and take a long time to settle .


I would agree with this too. I think sometimes people experience their dogs being wound up when out because they are having short walks which just don't allow enough time so the dog is excited all the time and doesn't properly get a release.

Mine are OTT for the first 5 minutes of mad ball throwing, I do a lot of obedience in between throws and although the obedience is at it's most flashy ( lol.gif ) - there is also barking anda general coiled springness about them, 20 minutes later, they are still happily playing fetch but are calm. I guess if I stopped after the 5 minutes, they might remain wound up as they hadn't had enough time to release all their excitement?

Just my musings....so I am sure others have different experiences/opinions....


--------------------
http://www.pawtracks.co.uk/

For dog walking and pet sitting in Scottish Borders and Midlothian area.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
celia
post 26th Mar 2012, 11:58 am
Post #10


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 12556
Joined: 26 Jan 04
Member No.: 7184



QUOTE(coinsky @ 26th Mar 2012, 12:39 pm) *

I would agree with this too. I think sometimes people experience their dogs being wound up when out because they are having short walks which just don't allow enough time so the dog is excited all the time and doesn't properly get a release.

Mine are OTT for the first 5 minutes of mad ball throwing, I do a lot of obedience in between throws and although the obedience is at it's most flashy ( lol.gif ) - there is also barking anda general coiled springness about them, 20 minutes later, they are still happily playing fetch but are calm. I guess if I stopped after the 5 minutes, they might remain wound up as they hadn't had enough time to release all their excitement?

Just my musings....so I am sure others have different experiences/opinions....


Beth and Barney are now 10 and 11 years old respectively so the coiled spring bits of them have somewhat faded . lol.gif But yes I think our walks go through different phases and rhythms and if the walk isn't long enough to go through all the phases, including the winding down walk back to the car, then they wouldn't be able to end their walk in their heads . unsure.gif unsure.gif My dogs are big ones for rituals ,like the ice cream stops in summer as I said, so they would feel cheated and unsettled if we did not go through all the stations that they expect.
But for us we always have been walkers, so the idea of getting dogs was to share our enjoyment of walking , it is something that we would do if we didn't have them, but so much more enjoyable with them. So it is me as much as them that would miss a daily walk and me as much as them that would feel restless and irritable without my walk.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
muttlover2
post 26th Mar 2012, 1:57 pm
Post #11


Member
****

Group: Member
Posts: 1488
Joined: 11 Nov 11
Member No.: 54116



I'm with you Celia. I like walking and in a nice place and it seems natural to me that a dog should be a companion.

This is all interesting to me. And I realise that in my original question perhaps it was all too broad. I understand the notion of walking elsewhere from things dogs are fearful of for a while (like my dog and his noise probs) to try and get the adrenalin to drop. That certainly makes sense. I suppose some rescues are stressed by things as they are undersocialised and so perhaps this is where that advice is used. But in that case it seems to me to be less about exercise as about just destressing the dog - it's not the exercise that's causing the problem but the stressors.

I suppose I was thinking more in terms of the obsessive chasers and focussers. And I was also thinking of frustration and stress and how not exercising can add to that and how people could spiral into a vicious circle. I suppose there is a "stressy" element to obsessive chasers and focussers too perhaps (??) but not getting exercise also causes a kind of "stress" wouldn't you say? And I just wasnt' sure if reducing exercise might not add to the problem as I think back to trying to get my dog's focus when we first had him and was not exercised much and was stressed and wired - in comparison to later on when he was able to let off steam properly and play and focus on stuff with us. But also it was about getting used to things in the environment.

I suppose I just question reducing the exercise a lot of a working breed that is over-focussed or OCDish about something and wondered if that might feed the focus with the pent up frustration. Or whether people had had success with that idea. Because it does seem to be suggested on DP but not necessarily just for the fearful dogs.

I also realise I don't have much experience of different breeds. Mind you, I was out with another collie today who was very different to my dog - pottering and sniffing whereas mine was wanting to interact all the time and play mad chase games with the other dogs. so not even the same breed is the same, as you say.

(Aside to Lindsay - a totally hectic walk and far more hectic than I wanted today - ended up going in the same direction as two dogwalkers with two sets of dogs! About 12 dogs all getting very excited and charging about in the water and chasing through the bushes and one got a stick and and and.... The kind of situation that in the past would have sent him too high in terms of adrenalin. Now, he was very excited and wasn't exactly listening to me because he was enjoying himself. mad.gif But he had a great time and all the dogs got along very well without a cross word - even whilst getting excited. So - this is the kind of situation I'd have avoided like the plague in the past. )





User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
walkiesandtalkies
post 26th Mar 2012, 3:30 pm
Post #12


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 6822
Joined: 1 Jan 07
Member No.: 26342



QUOTE(muttlover2 @ 26th Mar 2012, 2:57 pm) *

I'm with you Celia. I like walking and in a nice place and it seems natural to me that a dog should be a companion.

This is all interesting to me. And I realise that in my original question perhaps it was all too broad. I understand the notion of walking elsewhere from things dogs are fearful of for a while (like my dog and his noise probs) to try and get the adrenalin to drop. That certainly makes sense. I suppose some rescues are stressed by things as they are undersocialised and so perhaps this is where that advice is used. But in that case it seems to me to be less about exercise as about just destressing the dog - it's not the exercise that's causing the problem but the stressors.

I suppose I was thinking more in terms of the obsessive chasers and focussers. And I was also thinking of frustration and stress and how not exercising can add to that and how people could spiral into a vicious circle. I suppose there is a "stressy" element to obsessive chasers and focussers too perhaps (??) but not getting exercise also causes a kind of "stress" wouldn't you say? And I just wasnt' sure if reducing exercise might not add to the problem as I think back to trying to get my dog's focus when we first had him and was not exercised much and was stressed and wired - in comparison to later on when he was able to let off steam properly and play and focus on stuff with us. But also it was about getting used to things in the environment.



I'm not realy sure what ou are referig to as don't know where anyone ever said reduce exercise long term or that exercise is the problem. As said in my earlier post, chasing is not always quite as simple as they see something and want to chase bcause tey are a certan breed. Some dogs chase purely as a stess release or it can be a huge parof it - because it causes a chemical reaction in the brain, a release of dopermine which makes them feel better, a bitlike us going out and have loit ot drink if we've had a rubbish day, it makes us feel bette temporarily (well it does for some people). It csan be just the same for dogs, some obsessive chasers are incredibly stressed dogs, remove those stressors and get the dogs relaxed and the chasing can all bt dissapear with just dealin with wha it is that stresses the dog. My Dobe fr xample is one of the dogs - she gets very stssed with pain and her chasing will be ten times worse - or if she's had tog to the ves and gets tressed and I tookher out for a walk later that day - she might directono casing smethig she normally wouldn't.

I am aware of this and manage it and the things that strss her are kept to a minimum and her chasing is manageable ad she has a pretty good chase recall.

The type of exercise can be a problem as Lindsay has described or the environmenti which a dog is beingexercised can be a problem bt dn't think anone has ever said that exercise it's self is a bad thing.

I also think anyone would agree that walking with oyur dog as a companion is a lovely thing and I would love to be able to wlk anywhere and not worry or have to take things in to consideration but I do, just like you wouldn't walk your lad near where there was shooting going on or so on.

I think it's so easy to get tunnel vision about things and things sold be one way or this iwork s for my dogso should for another, they are all different and need to be treated as such, sadly behaviours aren;t aways quit as straih forward as thy miht seem or people might think. Just like socialising a dog by taking it ou amongst other dogs if thy are;t great wi oter dogs, may work for some, its' not as simple as that will aways work for another, because ter are different reasons and motivation, different imprints and different capacity o learn and change, different levels of stres and so many othre things. Like I say, it's all individual smile.gif


--------------------
www.keepsakejewellery.co.uk

Handmade Pet Portrait and Keepsake Jewellery
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
jackied
post 26th Mar 2012, 3:43 pm
Post #13


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 6836
Joined: 11 Sep 08
From: Cambridge
Member No.: 40705



With Lucy, I find that a one hour training class of heelwork and sit stays wears her out far more satisfactorily lol.gif than an hour (or two hours, or three hours) of running around like a loon. She goes out like a light and sleeps soundly all evening.

I'm not saying it would be good for her to do just training classes, of course. smile.gif


--------------------
www.www.jackieduckworthart.co.uk

Pet portraits and original artwork.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
coinsky
post 26th Mar 2012, 3:58 pm
Post #14


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 11422
Joined: 16 Jun 05
Member No.: 14818



I have heard it said by people on DP that dogs should maybe have less exercise if someone has said there dogs gets 4 hours etc so I do see where the OP is coming from.

I don't really get the argument that you keep creating a fitter dog, well of course you do..but that's kind of the point.....I want my dogs to be as healthy and fit as they can be. Much like people get into running and then what used to knacker them after 5 minutes now takes 10 or 20 but I still think it's better to be super fit and need a lot of exercise than unfit and get tired quick.

Now I just need to train my own body to feel the same way!!! lol.gif


--------------------
http://www.pawtracks.co.uk/

For dog walking and pet sitting in Scottish Borders and Midlothian area.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
walkiesandtalkies
post 26th Mar 2012, 4:22 pm
Post #15


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 6822
Joined: 1 Jan 07
Member No.: 26342



QUOTE(coinsky @ 26th Mar 2012, 4:58 pm) *

I have heard it said by people on DP that dogs should maybe have less exercise if someone has said there dogs gets 4 hours etc so I do see where the OP is coming from.

I don't really get the argument that you keep creating a fitter dog, well of course you do..but that's kind of the point.....I want my dogs to be as healthy and fit as they can be. Much like people get into running and then what used to knacker them after 5 minutes now takes 10 or 20 but I still think it's better to be super fit and need a lot of exercise than unfit and get tired quick.

Now I just need to train my own body to feel the same way!!! lol.gif


Oh, I see, but to be fair the only times I've seen that is when people say that there dogs' won't settle and need x number of hours exercise a day as in a it's a bit of a apon that they can;t manage with out all that exercise. People often tendto concetrate on the physical exercise and not on other needs and it's not healthy for a dog to not be able to sette without have x number of hours a day as some times live throws curve balls. Like for you recently needing to eleave your dogs for a week.

Plus I do think it is possible to actually not be creating a fitter dog as in health wise, yes they weill be getting fitter and fitter in terms of needing more to tire them out but I don't think excessive exercise for certain breeds that are prone to joint problems etc is creating as fit and healthy a dog as possible, not in the long term. I think I did too much physical exercise with Ciara as a younger girl in a bid to give her what I thouht she needed and wanted but actually I think she would have less in te way of joint problems now had I done less.

She also settles much better with half an hours clicker/sniffy work and a couple of half hours runs and training walks thatn she does on three hours of exercise a day. Actuallyall my guys do - they aren;t resting bcause they are physically exhausted, they re just settled and chilled. Soemthing Ciara rarely was when I gave her loads and loads of exercise and thaa really is; n option for me now anywaybecause her body can't cope sad.gif


--------------------
www.keepsakejewellery.co.uk

Handmade Pet Portrait and Keepsake Jewellery
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

4 Pages V  1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 20th December 2014 - 9:41 am