IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

> Training advice

Dogpages encourages owners to learn the skills to train their dogs with modern non-coercive methods and not to train with pain. Posts and advice given must reflect this policy.

For serious problems, owners should always seek good professional advice.

4 Pages V < 1 2 3 4 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Walking Two Dogs At Once
Jenny.Wren
post 1st Mar 2012, 8:52 pm
Post #31


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 1501
Joined: 5 Nov 04
From: Royal Berkshire
Member No.: 10802



no matter how much time I've spent trying to get Ellie to accept a harness or h/c, she just doesn't like them. I've spent hours with her, with treats and she happily touches it, lets me put it on, but as I don't have the luxury of allowing Ellie off lead, she HAS to have a harness on every walk, so I have never been in a fortunate enough position that I can spend weeks conditioning it to her. As well as Ellie enjoying her walks out, I have to enjoy them too err.gif
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
amber
post 1st Mar 2012, 8:53 pm
Post #32


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 9549
Joined: 5 Jul 02
From: Aberdeen
Member No.: 1944



QUOTE(claire&daisy @ 1st Mar 2012, 12:40 pm) *

No, they are a lifesaver. If you have a dog who will bite, if you have one who will lunge, if you have one who strikes with little warning.... a head collar plus a flat collar and a double ended lead ensures the safety of people around you.
I think you answer according to your own experience - please allow those of us who have more challenging dogs an opinion.


Where did I say no one else can have an opinion?

As you can have your opinion which I am not denying you, I can also have mine (and at least I don't stoop to calling other posters 'patronising', unlike some on here rolleyes.gif )

As it happens - I have had difficult dogs and have used muzzles in the past to keep people/other animals safe. But I would be the first to admit that a muzzle is only a band-aid or management tool, it does diddly squat to re-train a dog.

By the opinions being aired in this thread, it seems that some think ALL dogs should be walked in headcollars at all times, just in case they do something unpredictable.

Of course you cannot erase a dog's prey drive or interest in things that excite it, but the point of training surely is to moderate the behaviour to a level that is acceptable.

It is not always possible to do this, I appreciate, but just suggesting that a headcollar is the magic bullet to answer all problems out walking doesn't really tackle the issue.

Maybe Jackie was looking for management/equipment ideas, but perhaps she was also looking for ways in which to moderate the behaviour.

This post has been edited by amber: 1st Mar 2012, 8:53 pm
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
rosiemongrel
post 1st Mar 2012, 11:33 pm
Post #33


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 5648
Joined: 12 Jun 07
Member No.: 30558



QUOTE(walkiesandtalkies @ 1st Mar 2012, 8:04 pm) *

Jackie as for Holding onto Lucys collar


I think you misread her post - she was not holding onto Lucy's collar.

QUOTE(Jenny.Wren @ 1st Mar 2012, 8:52 pm) *

no matter how much time I've spent trying to get Ellie to accept a harness or h/c, she just doesn't like them. I've spent hours with her, with treats and she happily touches it, lets me put it on, but as I don't have the luxury of allowing Ellie off lead, she HAS to have a harness on every walk, so I have never been in a fortunate enough position that I can spend weeks conditioning it to her.


Of course it is perfectly possible, as in your case, not to succeed in conditioning a positive emotional response, despite one's best efforts. But the equipment (e.g. a harness) is not in and of itself aversive, it's just aversive to that dog because attempts to create a CER have not succeeded.

QUOTE(amber @ 1st Mar 2012, 8:53 pm) *

Of course you cannot erase a dog's prey drive or interest in things that excite it, but the point of training surely is to moderate the behaviour to a level that is acceptable.


And one piece of the training puzzle is to stop rehearsals of undesirable behaviour in your dog. Practice makes perfect, so if, for example, your dog barks at birds 3 times per walk, that makes 21 rehearsals a week. Maybe it doesn't matter if one's dog barks at birds / dogs / post men or whatever and gains reinforcement from it. But I think to the OP it does matter, for a number of perfectly valid reasons, which is why a head collar as a training tool is a reasonable suggestion. The halter allows you to create rehearsals of appropriate behaviour, of the dog making the right choice of where to focus when faced with distractions, so that when you fade the use of the head collar you have built an alternative history of reinforcement.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
EAD
post 2nd Mar 2012, 12:07 am
Post #34


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 11918
Joined: 10 Apr 03
Member No.: 4361



QUOTE(amber @ 1st Mar 2012, 10:58 am) *

I just don't see the value of headcollars in training, they can be a mangement tool but I rarely see any dogs that look truly happy in a headcollar.


Kyla has worn a headcollar for years due to her issues with kids/cats/offlead dogs running up to her whilst onlead and she certainly isnt unhappy with it on, infact shes her normal self smile.gif

Its certainly not a magic bullet, doesnt solve her issues but means I can control her when I need to.

Her issues with kids isnt something im interested in trying to train.


User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
walkiesandtalkies
post 2nd Mar 2012, 12:15 am
Post #35


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 6804
Joined: 1 Jan 07
Member No.: 26342



QUOTE(rosiemongrel @ 1st Mar 2012, 11:33 pm) *

I think you misread her post - she was not holding onto Lucy's collar.



Actually no, I just missed the word near out, regardless the rest of it applies even if I had misread what had been said, but I didn't, as I so often do it was a missed word!


--------------------
www.keepsakejewellery.co.uk

Handmade Pet Portrait and Keepsake Jewellery
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
amber
post 2nd Mar 2012, 9:36 am
Post #36


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 9549
Joined: 5 Jul 02
From: Aberdeen
Member No.: 1944



QUOTE(rosiemongrel @ 1st Mar 2012, 11:33 pm) *

I think you misread her post - she was not holding onto Lucy's collar.

Of course it is perfectly possible, as in your case, not to succeed in conditioning a positive emotional response, despite one's best efforts. But the equipment (e.g. a harness) is not in and of itself aversive, it's just aversive to that dog because attempts to create a CER have not succeeded.
And one piece of the training puzzle is to stop rehearsals of undesirable behaviour in your dog. Practice makes perfect, so if, for example, your dog barks at birds 3 times per walk, that makes 21 rehearsals a week. Maybe it doesn't matter if one's dog barks at birds / dogs / post men or whatever and gains reinforcement from it. But I think to the OP it does matter, for a number of perfectly valid reasons, which is why a head collar as a training tool is a reasonable suggestion. The halter allows you to create rehearsals of appropriate behaviour, of the dog making the right choice of where to focus when faced with distractions, so that when you fade the use of the head collar you have built an alternative history of reinforcement.


Yes you are right, I didn't condition Oscar to an H/C, as I didn't know about such things at the time smile.gif . However, i also didn't condition him to accept a harness and at first he wasn't sure he could walk normally in it, but very quickly he got used to it and was happy to wear it. So that kind of suggests to me that a headcollar is an intrinsically unpleasant thing for a dog to wear.

It was also probably my complete lack of skill, but the H/C did NOT stop or reduce his desire to lunge. All it did was make things much more unpleasant for him and me when he did lunge and also expose him to neck injury. Turning the head away - if you can do it 'in time' would take their eyes and head away from the trigger, but not necessarily stop the reaction.

Not practising the behaviour yes I agree is one part of the puzzle, but if a dog is going to lunge, I'd rather he did it on a piece of equipment that is definitely not going to cause neck injury or possibly make the issue worse because it adds to the unpleasantness and also suppresses the dog's body language.

Another part of the puzzle is leadership, which I thought was worth mentioning, because the L word is a dirty word on Dogpages (since people associate it with pack dominance theory). But I was merely talking from my own experience, as we all do.

I'm not a natural leader. I much prefer to be laid back and spoiling my dogs. A laid-back, easy-going dog that needs less input would suit my personality a lot better. Being strict does not come naturally to me, so that was a big piece of the puzzle that was missing IME. That if you don't control the less important stuff, such as house manners, dog manipulating you for food, games etc. then there is little chance dog will listen to you when it comes to more important things, like chasing or frustration shouting at birds/cats or whatever. It was like a 24 hour job to tighten up on every aspect of my relationship with my dog but it did make a big difference.

Probably a lot of people on here have natural leadership skills and do loads of training with their dogs all the time, but it took someone else to point out to me that doing a bit of clicker training is fine, but if you have a reactive dog, you need to act like a person who the dog will listen to 24/7.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
pangolin
post 2nd Mar 2012, 9:58 am
Post #37


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 9481
Joined: 28 May 09
From: Surrey
Member No.: 45080



QUOTE(amber @ 1st Mar 2012, 8:53 pm) *
As it happens - I have had difficult dogs and have used muzzles in the past to keep people/other animals safe. But I would be the first to admit that a muzzle is only a band-aid or management tool, it does diddly squat to re-train a dog.

By the opinions being aired in this thread, it seems that some think ALL dogs should be walked in headcollars at all times, just in case they do something unpredictable.

Of course you cannot erase a dog's prey drive or interest in things that excite it, but the point of training surely is to moderate the behaviour to a level that is acceptable.

It is not always possible to do this, I appreciate, but just suggesting that a headcollar is the magic bullet to answer all problems out walking doesn't really tackle the issue.

Maybe Jackie was looking for management/equipment ideas, but perhaps she was also looking for ways in which to moderate the behaviour.


I don't think anyone here was saying a headcollar was a cure-all, just that some feel it is an actual aid in training as well as being an immediate solution to problems like lunging/pulling an owner over.
You could argue that a lead is a bandaid to walking beside you. You can train a dog to walk beside you, is a lead really necessary? Well, even the most obedient dog can have an off-day so a lead provides a physical backup should their training have a temporary blip/failure. A longline is a management tool when recall is not 100%, it aids training without the dog practising the undesired behaviour. If we're ditching the lead and the longline, we might as well ditch collars too - why do we need a form of ID if you train your dog to not run off? You could even argue that poo bags are a management tool - many people train their dog to toilet on command so are we failing by not training our dogs to only toilet at home? Are we cheating by "allowing" a dog to poo on a walk and doing the easy solution of carrying poo bags? Why do so many members use babygates to restrict dogs to certain areas of the house instead of just training them not to pass through doorways? Why worry about fencing in your garden, when you could train a dog to not leave the boundary line? All of these behaviours are trainable in most, if not all, dogs but it's not instant and it can have lapses so equipment can be a lifesaver, literally, in many cases. I do feel that headcollars can be very useful "just incase", like I think 6' fencing can be handy "just incase", babygates useful "just incase" and even poo bags, "just incase". Dogs aren't predictable, because they're living things, and I think it's sensible to realise that.
I don't see why it has to be management/equipment OR behaviour modification through training, we use equipment as a precursor to training, or even as a replacement, for lots of the most basic dog behaviour as mentioned above.

QUOTE(amber @ 2nd Mar 2012, 9:36 am) *

Yes you are right, I didn't condition Oscar to an H/C, as I didn't know about such things at the time smile.gif . However, i also didn't condition him to accept a harness and at first he wasn't sure he could walk normally in it, but very quickly he got used to it and was happy to wear it. So that kind of suggests to me that a headcollar is an intrinsically unpleasant thing for a dog to wear.


Maybe more unpleasant for Oscar but I don't think you can generalise. I have done the "plonk it on and take them out" thing with headcollars in the past, before I knew better, and had no problems - from my experience I could say that headcollars can't be unpleasant for a dog to wear, but one example doesn't make it true across the board. My two don't mind their headcollars, they know it means walkies and come over and stick their nose into the noseband before I have a chance to do it myself, so I don't think they hate them. But I'm sure some dogs do find the feeling alien or uncomfortable, even when conditioned to it, so it has to be judged on an individual basis. I personally hate the feel of a scarf or thick collar around my neck, but others love the feeling of a scarf tied snuggly around them. I found wearing a ring was an alien sensation for a long time, but eventually got used to it and now it feels odd if I forget to wear it. Some people like baggy clothes, some people like tight fighting ones, some people like wearing hats, some don't, I'm sure the tolerance of a headcollar, collar or harness varies from dog to dog too.

This post has been edited by pangolin: 2nd Mar 2012, 10:03 am
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
celia
post 2nd Mar 2012, 10:23 am
Post #38


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 12556
Joined: 26 Jan 04
Member No.: 7184



I think what is happening here in this slight disagreement is that Amber is talking from the position of sighthound experience. And that does affect the decision whether or not to use headcollars. Sighthounds tend to have longer necks than most other dogs and in many types have a more exposed trachea, therefore they are more vulnerable to neck injury . I use a harness on both of mine and cannot use a head collar on Barney because he has already slipped a disc in his neck. Once a disc has been injured apparently it becomes more likely for this to happen again. I think this makes headcollars more aversive to some dogs because of their physiology ?

Pangolin, I love the idea of poo bags as a management tool, you make a good case and I agree with you .

edit to add as you can see in my avatar even a stocky well built very furry part lurcher like Barney has a longer neck .

This post has been edited by celia: 2nd Mar 2012, 10:25 am
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
nikirushka
post 2nd Mar 2012, 11:47 am
Post #39


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 16134
Joined: 6 Dec 06
From: Scunthorpe, Lincs
Member No.: 25819



QUOTE(pangolin @ 2nd Mar 2012, 9:58 am) *

Maybe more unpleasant for Oscar but I don't think you can generalise. I have done the "plonk it on and take them out" thing with headcollars in the past, before I knew better, and had no problems - from my experience I could say that headcollars can't be unpleasant for a dog to wear, but one example doesn't make it true across the board.


Very true. I've done the plonk-on thing and the gradual thing, and had mixed results - Remy's was just plonked on and he's never fought it, just accepted it, as did Opi; River doesn't like hers and will rub on grass but that's all; but Raine - who I've done a LOT of work with to desensitise her to it - hates it and actually gets quite distressed just with the desensitising work, she's never actually had it on because she gets so worried about it.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
woofgang
post 2nd Mar 2012, 12:01 pm
Post #40


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 7995
Joined: 31 Jan 11
Member No.: 51601



QUOTE(amber @ 2nd Mar 2012, 9:36 am) *

Yes you are right, I didn't condition Oscar to an H/C, as I didn't know about such things at the time smile.gif . However, i also didn't condition him to accept a harness and at first he wasn't sure he could walk normally in it, but very quickly he got used to it and was happy to wear it. So that kind of suggests to me that a headcollar is an intrinsically unpleasant thing for a dog to wear.

It was also probably my complete lack of skill, but the H/C did NOT stop or reduce his desire to lunge. All it did was make things much more unpleasant for him and me when he did lunge and also expose him to neck injury. Turning the head away - if you can do it 'in time' would take their eyes and head away from the trigger, but not necessarily stop the reaction.

Not practising the behaviour yes I agree is one part of the puzzle, but if a dog is going to lunge, I'd rather he did it on a piece of equipment that is definitely not going to cause neck injury or possibly make the issue worse because it adds to the unpleasantness and also suppresses the dog's body language.

Another part of the puzzle is leadership, which I thought was worth mentioning, because the L word is a dirty word on Dogpages (since people associate it with pack dominance theory). But I was merely talking from my own experience, as we all do.


I'm not a natural leader. I much prefer to be laid back and spoiling my dogs. A laid-back, easy-going dog that needs less input would suit my personality a lot better. Being strict does not come naturally to me, so that was a big piece of the puzzle that was missing IME. That if you don't control the less important stuff, such as house manners, dog manipulating you for food, games etc. then there is little chance dog will listen to you when it comes to more important things, like chasing or frustration shouting at birds/cats or whatever. It was like a 24 hour job to tighten up on every aspect of my relationship with my dog but it did make a big difference.

Probably a lot of people on here have natural leadership skills and do loads of training with their dogs all the time, but it took someone else to point out to me that doing a bit of clicker training is fine, but if you have a reactive dog, you need to act like a person who the dog will listen to 24/7.


yes indeed amber I agree. If someone meets a strange adult dog who has no reason to listen or comply with requests, chances are that they wont without a really strong motivator (eg very yummy food) after all why should the dog listen?
We work with our dogs to get them to a place where they decide that the consequences of listening and co-operating are better than the consequences of ignoring and disobeying. As you said, that doesn't mean domination and punishment, it does mean rules and consequences!
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
woofgang
post 2nd Mar 2012, 12:02 pm
Post #41


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 7995
Joined: 31 Jan 11
Member No.: 51601



QUOTE(amber @ 2nd Mar 2012, 9:36 am) *

Yes you are right, I didn't condition Oscar to an H/C, as I didn't know about such things at the time smile.gif . However, i also didn't condition him to accept a harness and at first he wasn't sure he could walk normally in it, but very quickly he got used to it and was happy to wear it. So that kind of suggests to me that a headcollar is an intrinsically unpleasant thing for a dog to wear.

It was also probably my complete lack of skill, but the H/C did NOT stop or reduce his desire to lunge. All it did was make things much more unpleasant for him and me when he did lunge and also expose him to neck injury. Turning the head away - if you can do it 'in time' would take their eyes and head away from the trigger, but not necessarily stop the reaction.

Not practising the behaviour yes I agree is one part of the puzzle, but if a dog is going to lunge, I'd rather he did it on a piece of equipment that is definitely not going to cause neck injury or possibly make the issue worse because it adds to the unpleasantness and also suppresses the dog's body language.

Another part of the puzzle is leadership, which I thought was worth mentioning, because the L word is a dirty word on Dogpages (since people associate it with pack dominance theory). But I was merely talking from my own experience, as we all do.


I'm not a natural leader. I much prefer to be laid back and spoiling my dogs. A laid-back, easy-going dog that needs less input would suit my personality a lot better. Being strict does not come naturally to me, so that was a big piece of the puzzle that was missing IME. That if you don't control the less important stuff, such as house manners, dog manipulating you for food, games etc. then there is little chance dog will listen to you when it comes to more important things, like chasing or frustration shouting at birds/cats or whatever. It was like a 24 hour job to tighten up on every aspect of my relationship with my dog but it did make a big difference.

Probably a lot of people on here have natural leadership skills and do loads of training with their dogs all the time, but it took someone else to point out to me that doing a bit of clicker training is fine, but if you have a reactive dog, you need to act like a person who the dog will listen to 24/7.


yes indeed amber I agree. If someone meets a strange adult dog who has no reason to listen or comply with requests, chances are that they wont without a really strong motivator (eg very yummy food) after all why should the dog listen?
We work with our dogs to get them to a place where they decide that the consequences of listening and co-operating are better than the consequences of ignoring and disobeying. As you said, that doesn't mean domination and punishment, it does mean rules and consequences!
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
jackied
post 2nd Mar 2012, 1:22 pm
Post #42


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 6769
Joined: 11 Sep 08
From: Cambridge
Member No.: 40705



QUOTE
Maybe more unpleasant for Oscar but I don't think you can generalise. I have done the "plonk it on and take them out" thing with headcollars in the past, before I knew better, and had no problems - from my experience I could say that headcollars can't be unpleasant for a dog to wear, but one example doesn't make it true across the board.


It also depends on the headcollar brand, doesn't it? My mother's dog didn't like the Halti but was much happier with a Gentle Leader. So that was purely a fit thing, not a CER thing.

I agree that there can be leadership without dominance. When we protect our fearful dogs by standing between them and the scary thing, that's surely leadership in a good way.

Going back to the restraint thing, I agree that it would be inappropriate for me to heavily restrain Lucy for getting over excited by birds, since that happens all the time. I need to slog on with normal LLW training with extra praise and treats when there are a lot of birds around.

But what about the barking at other dogs if Twix kicks off problem? It's (a) unpleasant for the other dog and owner and (b) bad for Twix's arousal levels © winds me up something chronic! If in the short term by holding her on a short lead+harness I can get her to pay attention to me, sit on command and eat liver treats, I'm hoping that before long she will sit and pay attention to me for liver treats without being held on a short lead, because she will have learned that it 'pays' to do so. Do you think this is likely to backfire? It's not her only contact with other dogs as on her solo afternoon walks we can be much more relaxed.


--------------------
www.www.jackieduckworthart.co.uk

Pet portraits and original artwork.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
sukibeau
post 2nd Mar 2012, 1:27 pm
Post #43


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 355
Joined: 25 Oct 10
From: west yorkshire
Member No.: 50811



smile.gif just thought i would add my experiences to this thread.

Pippa, has issues with people and other dogs. (she is only small 16" to the shoulder.)

It doesnt matter where we are going she wears a headcollar. She is used to it, gets exited when it comes out, is quite happy wearing it. More importantly, it has given me so much confidence knowing I am in charge of the bit where the teeth are lol.gif .
Since having the head collar it has given me so much confidence I am happy now to take her on buses and trains - all because I control where the head is.
The situation for us is reaping reward as well, the more I take her places, the more she is learning to ignore people. She still has problems with other dogs - but we can usually pass something on the other side of the road without any fuss now. rolleyes.gif
Pippa has also worn her baskerville muzzle over the top of her headcollar.(she is quite happy to wear her muzzle and puts her nose into it for me) wub.gif

Has anyone else found the situation whereby: the dog is wearing a headcollar seems to put a lot of people off even trying to touch it. I have ... I dont know if it is because the headcollar is black as well as Pippa and it may look a bit severe unsure.gif , but quite a few people have backed away saying ugh its got a muzzle on (when she hasnt)suits me anyway because that has been one of my problems - stopping people diving in to stroke the cute doggy - even when you tell them not to rolleyes.gif

I agree totally with what EAD says - except for the bit about children - I almost darent say it in case it goes wrong but Pippa is brilliant with my grandson. (although she is a bit too exiteable and is in danger of knocking him over)

(this is off topic - but i think she has been less stressed since not going to training class).
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
pangolin
post 2nd Mar 2012, 1:36 pm
Post #44


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 9481
Joined: 28 May 09
From: Surrey
Member No.: 45080



QUOTE(sukibeau @ 2nd Mar 2012, 1:27 pm) *
Has anyone else found the situation whereby: the dog is wearing a headcollar seems to put a lot of people off even trying to touch it. I have ... I dont know if it is because the headcollar is black as well as Pippa and it may look a bit severe unsure.gif , but quite a few people have backed away saying ugh its got a muzzle on (when she hasnt)suits me anyway because that has been one of my problems - stopping people diving in to stroke the cute doggy - even when you tell them not to rolleyes.gif


I had this with my last dog and her Halti so this time around I purposely went for the pastel coloured Dogmatics - baby blue for Casper and baby pink for Kiki. No one's ever (as far as I can recall) mistaken them for a muzzle, despite dozens of people doing it with the Halti. This is even despite the Dogmatics being chunkier because I went for the leather ones. Definately notice a difference in how people react, I've hardly ever had anyone be wary of approaching or stroking my two in their Dogmatics.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
jackied
post 2nd Mar 2012, 1:41 pm
Post #45


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 6769
Joined: 11 Sep 08
From: Cambridge
Member No.: 40705



QUOTE
Has anyone else found the situation whereby: the dog is wearing a headcollar seems to put a lot of people off even trying to touch it.


The muzzle definitely helps keep some potentila molesters off Twix. People are particularly careful with their children. smile.gif

This post has been edited by jackied: 2nd Mar 2012, 1:42 pm


--------------------
www.www.jackieduckworthart.co.uk

Pet portraits and original artwork.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

4 Pages V < 1 2 3 4 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 23rd April 2014 - 6:40 am