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> Walking Two Dogs At Once
amber
post 1st Mar 2012, 9:44 am
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In the case of two medium, light dogs I don't really see a h/c as strictly necessary and yes, they will still pull and lunge with them on, then the equipment becomes aversive. Headcollars - though I know with some very strong dogs are needed for safetey - are just a sticking plaster over the issue JMO. It's their brains you need to control, not their heads lol.gif

Personally think you'd get a lot further with a clicker and re-evaluating relationships.
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jackied
post 1st Mar 2012, 9:52 am
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Well, on the walk this morning I tried shortening the front attachment of Lucy's lead to about 2" when we had to be near other dogs while on lead - ie Rosiemongrel's advice without a headcollar. It worked well with the two dogs we met, even though one of them was a big lab that came right up to us and sniffed. Because her head was therefore at the same 'end' as Twix's they could both have sausage for good behaviour. smile.gif

Numpty owner apologised but then said "Can you catch my dog" please'. ohmy.gif I said remarkably politely "No. I am alaready holding two dogs and one of them doesn't like other dogs." Luckily her dog then ambled off.

I don't think I could walk along in that position though, Lucy's very little for a Springer.

Mind you I was a numpty owner earlier. hit.gif Lucy was annoying another dog (both off lead, but something she is normally very good about, or maybe it startled her because it appeared round a corner quite suddenly.) Numpty owner (ie me) calls "Lucy. Lucy!!" [whistle] "Lucy!!!!!!! What's the matter with you? Lucy!!!!!!!!!! " [poor annoyed dog growls, Lucy backs off a bit but is still being annoying] Luceeeeeee!"[pathetic wail] "You're supposed to be my good dog!" lol.gif

The impressive thing is that Twix stayed calm through all this.

This post has been edited by jackied: 1st Mar 2012, 9:55 am


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Mrsmopp
post 1st Mar 2012, 10:25 am
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QUOTE(amber @ 1st Mar 2012, 9:44 am) *

It's their brains you need to control, not their heads lol.gif

Personally think you'd get a lot further with a clicker and re-evaluating relationships.


rolleyes.gif Yes, because dogs are robots and will never ever act out of character or react to a stimuli that they wouldn't normally react to.

Why do people have to be so patronising unsure.gif
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amber
post 1st Mar 2012, 10:58 am
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QUOTE(Mrsmopp @ 1st Mar 2012, 10:25 am) *

rolleyes.gif Yes, because dogs are robots and will never ever act out of character or react to a stimuli that they wouldn't normally react to.

Why do people have to be so patronising unsure.gif



Jackie isn't talking about her dogs acting out of character or reacting to stimuli that they don't normally react to. She's talking about predictable reactions to specific things and also one dog copying the other.

I just don't see the value of headcollars in training, they can be a mangement tool but I rarely see any dogs that look truly happy in a headcollar. I did point out that with some very large, strong dogs they might be necessary for a safety net. I would not have thought that a springer and a sprollie fall into that category.

Not sure why suggesting clicker training or improving relationships is seen as patronising unsure.gif ?
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jackied
post 1st Mar 2012, 11:09 am
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For the record, I appreciated Amber's comment. smile.gif It is different from Rosiemongrel's dogs reacting to the occasional cat or postman. I'd already worked out that it wouldn't be good for Twix as it would be too aversive. smile.gif


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claire&daisy
post 1st Mar 2012, 12:32 pm
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I walk (together) one excitable youngster, one reactive Shepherd and Mr Grumpy.
I walk the mad pair on haltis and Mr Grumpy on a long lead so he can keep out of their way.
When we encounter anything that requires them to leap about I turn and walk away from it then they are put in a Sit and it`s biccies all round. Even Mr Grumpy approves of this method.
It does, however, mean it sometimes takes us quite a while to actually get anywhere.

A headcollar is only a tool. It can be used well or badly. I like to think I use it well.

This post has been edited by claire&daisy: 1st Mar 2012, 12:35 pm
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claire&daisy
post 1st Mar 2012, 12:40 pm
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QUOTE(amber @ 1st Mar 2012, 10:44 am) *

In the case of two medium, light dogs I don't really see a h/c as strictly necessary and yes, they will still pull and lunge with them on, then the equipment becomes aversive. Headcollars - though I know with some very strong dogs are needed for safetey - are just a sticking plaster over the issue JMO. It's their brains you need to control, not their heads lol.gif

Personally think you'd get a lot further with a clicker and re-evaluating relationships.


No, they are a lifesaver. If you have a dog who will bite, if you have one who will lunge, if you have one who strikes with little warning.... a head collar plus a flat collar and a double ended lead ensures the safety of people around you.
I think you answer according to your own experience - please allow those of us who have more challenging dogs an opinion.
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Jenny.Wren
post 1st Mar 2012, 5:08 pm
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I just think that sometimes there are things we will never stop our dogs from doing, it's their natural behaviour, but we learn to manage it best we can or slightly desensitise them err.gif

The headcollar has been very useful for me with Ellie. She can be reactive to other dogs when out walking and wants to charge at the birds along the pavement but the head collar means I can keep her in check. However I think I'll have to start using one with Sam as he wants to go after them too and will often bark at them. At the moment I turn around and walk in the other direction but I think I will try and calm him and offer treats for calm behaviour.

Leave It works for Ellie, however Sam has sussed that asking her to leave something means it must be interesting tongue.gif so it has the opposite effect for Sam, and consequently he starts boinging around looking around for what I've told Ellie to leave.

When at the park I dont mind Sam having a little chase of the birds as he always come back, whereas that wont happen with Ellie. I honesty don't know (or think) someone could ever stop a dog's interest in birds/cats/squirrels etc....it's what comes natural through evolution
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woofgang
post 1st Mar 2012, 5:56 pm
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When we got the boys, there were two of us. Big strong well built DH and shorter well built me. We are now 4 and a half years later, and I am a widow with an iffy back and a loose body in my knee. I have had two years of managing as I can. Yes the dogs should have had better training and be less reactive...oddly life got in my way.... so I manage the situation and walk one of them in a figure of eight head collar, he trots along quite happily, will still divert to sniff his own trail and puts his head in the collar happily when asked to.

It would be lovely if I didn't need to but he is a strong boy and I can't risk injury because there is only me. Plain commonsense tells me that there will be times when I can't control his thinking so controlling his head is a good second choice. smile.gif I haven't given up on the training.

btw I know a woman who was pulled through a plate glass window by a springer...many years ago before the toughened glass laws.....
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jackied
post 1st Mar 2012, 6:09 pm
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QUOTE
btw I know a woman who was pulled through a plate glass window by a springer


Twix has pulled me right over once, all on his ownsome (though it was on particularly uneven footing).


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coinsky
post 1st Mar 2012, 6:19 pm
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I don't know why I am in this thread as I have no advice, when my two kick off it is a lot to hold them back. I have yet to meet anyone that can hold Kofi (except the guys at training who are used to holding back GSD's) - even my friend who is an ex para can't hold him if he suddenly pulls, and that's just Kofi not both of them! People look at me and wonder what my arms are made of. lol.gif


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rosiemongrel
post 1st Mar 2012, 6:34 pm
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QUOTE(amber @ 29th Feb 2012, 8:02 pm) *

Oscar hated headcollars, they made him depressed.


If his headcollar made him depressed, then he did not have a CER to his headcollar. That is a training issue, not an equipment issue.

QUOTE(jackied @ 1st Mar 2012, 8:19 am) *

I can see that in principle but (1) can do you do that holding onto two dogs and (2) can you use a headcollar under a baskerville muzzle? and (3) do you use a double ended leash and clip to the harness as well?

I think it would help with Lucy and birds but not so sure about with Twix and dogs/people.


I was Lucy I was thinking of Jackie, as she is not barking out of fear, but out of opportunism (He's barking, so I'll join in), or overarousal (Birdy! It's a birdy I tell ya!!). If she barks less at stuff, then that will mean that Twix doesn't get annoyed with her, too. SG does describe how you have to walk backwards away from the distraction so that the dog has a chance to calm themselves down, so it all fits in with ideas of threshold etc. Once you have turned the dog's attention back onto you, you immediately release pressure on the head collar and allow the dog the choice of where to focus. If the dog kicks off again, you back off some more. (Not always physically possible, I know.)

My answers to your other questions would be:
1. I think so, yes.
2. I think technically you can, but I don't think I would (there's only so much equipment that I'm prepared to make my dogs wear, so for Twix, I'd stick to your current lead arrangement. I don't think it's worth risking upsetting him by changing the system he's comfortable with.)
3. When we are just going for a lead walk, its double-ended lead on headcollar and flat collar for both dogs. When we are going somewhere where the dogs'll be off lead, it's headcollar + harness. (That's only if I'm walking them by myself. When OH comes along, it's harnesses for both of them.)

QUOTE(amber @ 1st Mar 2012, 10:58 am) *

I just don't see the value of headcollars in training, they can be a mangement tool but I rarely see any dogs that look truly happy in a headcollar. I did point out that with some very large, strong dogs they might be necessary for a safety net. I would not have thought that a springer and a sprollie fall into that category.


My springer / sprollie combo has once pulled me over, so it's perfectly possible wink.gif . If you see dogs looking unhappy about their head collar, that's probbaly because they were not conditioned to like it because owners are prone to corner cutting. Susan Garrett has about 12 different games she plays with her dogs to make them love their head collar. It's not just a case of 'here's a treat whilst I shove this onto your nose'. And yes, used as she describes it it is a training device, not a management tool. There is a whole chapter on it in her book Shaping Success. There are probably other ways to use it, but I as referring to her method earlier.

As a management tool, it can be invaluable. Pip chased a cat across a road recently whilst being walked by OH. The harness she was wearing allowed her to pull the lead out of OH's hand with sufficient force that she got free and nearly got run over. A head collar would not have allowed her to do that.

FWIW, I don't think that a dog is excited by birds / upset by window cleaners / aroused by rattling rubbish trucks because there is something wrong with its relationship with its owner.
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walkiesandtalkies
post 1st Mar 2012, 8:04 pm
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QUOTE(rosiemongrel @ 1st Mar 2012, 6:34 pm) *

If his headcollar made him depressed, then he did not have a CER to his headcollar. That is a training issue, not an equipment issue.



While most dogs can be conditioned to be happy wearing most equipment, it's a little unfair and untrue to say that it was a training issue for Amber with her past doggie as some dogs will never be happy in headcollars because sometimes CER is already to cnditioned in a negative way for the positive one to overide for various reasons! Just like some dogs worry about harnesses no matter how much work people put in or some dogs remain reactive to other dogs or cats, is all about CER!

Jackie as for Holding onto Lucys collar - I woudl be careful taht this doesn;t build into frustration as it may work short term but in the long run (as Amber says) this is a predicatble event and something that is happeneing fairly regularly, actually you could end up building frustration and she will start to predict the hand sliding up the lead as a precursor to something else, ie beng kept from seeing something exciting.

You can use headciollars under baskervilles yes smile.gif


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woofgang
post 1st Mar 2012, 8:23 pm
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QUOTE(walkiesandtalkies @ 1st Mar 2012, 8:04 pm) *

While most dogs can be conditioned to be happy wearing most equipment, it's a little unfair and untrue to say that it was a training issue for Amber with her past doggie as some dogs will never be happy in headcollars because sometimes CER is already to cnditioned in a negative way for the positive one to overide for various reasons! Just like some dogs worry about harnesses no matter how much work people put in or some dogs remain reactive to other dogs or cats, is all about CER!

Jackie as for Holding onto Lucys collar - I woudl be careful taht this doesn;t build into frustration as it may work short term but in the long run (as Amber says) this is a predicatble event and something that is happeneing fairly regularly, actually you could end up building frustration and she will start to predict the hand sliding up the lead as a precursor to something else, ie beng kept from seeing something exciting.

You can use headciollars under baskervilles yes smile.gif


Because we were inexperienced and stupid, out first smartiepants wei used to look around for the forbidden excitement whenever we called him back on a walk rolleyes.gif
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walkiesandtalkies
post 1st Mar 2012, 8:27 pm
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QUOTE(woofgang @ 1st Mar 2012, 8:23 pm) *

Because we were inexperienced and stupid, out first smartiepants wei used to look around for the forbidden excitement whenever we called him back on a walk rolleyes.gif


lol.gif Exactly the kind of thing I meant - but it can cause more serious problems than that, just something that needs to be taken into consideration.


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