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> Walking Two Dogs At Once
jackied
post 29th Feb 2012, 9:43 am
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Lucy walks nicely on lead, on her own, unless she sees a bird. She's not too bothered by other dogs if she's on her own on lead, and I always reward her for passing them nicely.

Twix walks nicely on lead, on his own, unless another dog or scary human gets too close, he's not bothered by birds.

Lucy off lead and Twix on lead is no problem. He is calmer with other dogs if Lucy is around than if he is walked on his own.

Lucy and Twix walk nicely on lead together, if there aren't any dogs or any birds.

BUT

If a scary dog gets too close and Twix kicks off, Lucy goes into excited barkfest mode, and in fact takes a lot longer to calm down than Twix does. (Twix barking always starts her barking, whatever the reason for it.) Two demented dogs is downright humiliating.

If a bird gets too close and Lucy kicks off, Twix gets all garrrry at her. I don't know if he's trying to play (most likely) but I think he's beginning to get peeed off with her too, as it means my arm and therefore his lead tend to get jerked about. Whichever it is I have two demented dogs. Again.

This is very hard work and very frustrating! I am walking Lucy on her own in the afternoon to improve her on lead behaviour in the presence of birds (with a little success), and we are also working on her self-control on the presence of chickens (which means she is barking even more than usual at home err.gif as she wants to go outside all the time to see what they're doing mad.gif ). We already only get within Twix-kicking-off distance of other dogs if I can't avoid it. Birds I can't control distance at all. Is there anything else I can do?


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Jenny.Wren
post 29th Feb 2012, 10:34 am
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sigh..... birds and dogs - tell me about it sad.gif

I have similar issues with Sam & Ellie. They are both fixated on birds swooping past so will be interested to read the responses.
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Mrsmopp
post 29th Feb 2012, 11:03 am
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I had an incident a couple of weeks ago that made me realise no matter how well trained mine are they, together, are stronger than me and it knocked my confidence walking them together on lead.

I'm now currently acclimatising Shmoo to a head collar for extra back up

I don't know what the answer is unfortunately :/
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celia
post 29th Feb 2012, 12:59 pm
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My 2 on lead are tricky in the presence of cats mostly. If I walk along our street there are cats lurking around walls , on walls, under cars, on cars, lying in the road ,crossing the road etc etc. Also one neighbour has free range ducks in her front garden. rolleyes.gif Barney's worries about other dogs pale in comparison so we focus on cat fever.
I do a lot of stopping and standing still till we are all calm. They know this from the I won't open the door till you are both calm thing. I can't say it stops cat excitment fever but it does mean I am less likely to be yanked about. Between them my 2 are about 3/4 of my weight ! I would wear out "leave" if I used it .
I did try practising heel with each one in turn but cat fever wipes that out when they are together.
Another thing is carrying the leads , one in each hand so that they wrap around me from the back and over my shoulder, I may look like a geisha shuffling along a bit but it limits the propulsion they can attain.
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nikirushka
post 29th Feb 2012, 1:11 pm
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Only practical solutions I've found besides the ongoing training/behaviour work for the issues on an individual basis, have been a headcollar for the reactive dog so they couldn't properly kick off, and lead-walking them separately if need be. In my case it was lead-walking Remy and Soli together that could be a problem - if she kicked off, he would join in, mostly to protect her from whatever had spooked her but sometimes just to be bolshy.

Off lead it was never an issue, only on, and most of the time not then - if I could keep her calm (well, not reacting anyway, she was never calm on-lead), he never paid any notice to what she was doing.

I should note that Soli was walked alone for at least a year - she was just too reactive and crazy on-lead to walk with the others. She was always stressed by lead walking but in that year I did at least get her sensible enough that I could start to walk with the others - she used to spin, run rings round me, and jab the inside of my thigh (OUCH) when she got stressed so I had to at least sort the first two first (never did stop the jabbing but I did redirect it to a hand touch).
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pangolin
post 29th Feb 2012, 1:12 pm
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QUOTE(Mrsmopp @ 29th Feb 2012, 11:03 am) *

I had an incident a couple of weeks ago that made me realise no matter how well trained mine are they, together, are stronger than me and it knocked my confidence walking them together on lead.

I'm now currently acclimatising Shmoo to a head collar for extra back up

I don't know what the answer is unfortunately :/


I walk my two with headcollars for this reason, they're not necessary most of the time but it's reassuring to have them there. Unfortunately Casper's dog reactivity can set Kiki off despite her not being reactive, so I do prefer it when OH comes out with us (they behave much better when they're together but walked by seperate people) but unfortunately he's a fair weather walker rolleyes.gif I don't know if a summer of us walking them together has helped with their behaviour walking with just me, could be worth trying if you have a willing volunteer.
Practice does seem to have helped, generally nowadays the behaviour tends to be limited to a bit of OTT GSD-style yodelling from Casper, and Kiki going into alert mode and maybe whining a bit, better than the barking and lunging that had put me off walking them anywhere public together in the past. Thankfully neither have an issue with birds though, that must make things difficult err.gif

This post has been edited by pangolin: 29th Feb 2012, 1:13 pm
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Mrsmopp
post 29th Feb 2012, 2:14 pm
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QUOTE(pangolin @ 29th Feb 2012, 1:12 pm) *

I walk my two with headcollars for this reason, they're not necessary most of the time but it's reassuring to have them there. Unfortunately Casper's dog reactivity can set Kiki off despite her not being reactive, so I do prefer it when OH comes out with us (they behave much better when they're together but walked by seperate people) but unfortunately he's a fair weather walker rolleyes.gif I don't know if a summer of us walking them together has helped with their behaviour walking with just me, could be worth trying if you have a willing volunteer.
Practice does seem to have helped, generally nowadays the behaviour tends to be limited to a bit of OTT GSD-style yodelling from Casper, and Kiki going into alert mode and maybe whining a bit, better than the barking and lunging that had put me off walking them anywhere public together in the past. Thankfully neither have an issue with birds though, that must make things difficult err.gif


What happened with my 2 is a massively rare occurence (in fact this was the first time it happened) where they both reacted to a terrier who was gobbing off at them (they never normally react) and thankfully I was able to stay upright and keep hold of the both close to me, amazing the strength you can find in an emergency lol.gif

I have an OH like yours rolleyes.gif Even in fair weather I struggle to get hom to come out with me - even if its just taking them across the paddock which is about 30ft from our lounge rolleyes.gif so the headcollar is going to be a must going forward to make sure we can all be safe.
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Jo@thewilderness
post 29th Feb 2012, 2:40 pm
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QUOTE(Mrsmopp @ 29th Feb 2012, 3:14 pm) *

What happened with my 2 is a massively rare occurence (in fact this was the first time it happened) where they both reacted to a terrier who was gobbing off at them (they never normally react) and thankfully I was able to stay upright and keep hold of the both close to me, amazing the strength you can find in an emergency lol.gif

I have an OH like yours rolleyes.gif Even in fair weather I struggle to get hom to come out with me - even if its just taking them across the paddock which is about 30ft from our lounge rolleyes.gif so the headcollar is going to be a must going forward to make sure we can all be safe.


It is amazing the strength you can find!

I rarely lead walk everyone together any more and my OH is slightly better than both of yours! But I have to say I use equipment all the way when I do.

When I have all the hounds on lead I've got 110 kilos of dog potentially kicking off. One is fear agressive on lead and the others will protect her if they see a lab (her biggest fear). When I have everyone together on lead I'm handling 180 kilos of dog ohmy.gif So equipment is a must and keeps us all safe and orderly rolleyes.gif
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Deeso
post 29th Feb 2012, 3:24 pm
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I've just added a topic and noticed yours...mine is about our dog and birds! I thought it was quite unusual... so relief in a way to see others experiencing similar. Our pup caught a pigeon and things escalated. I thought it was cats that were into birds. Watching replies with great interest!
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muttlover2
post 29th Feb 2012, 4:07 pm
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I don't know only having one dog. however I have got him out of chasing his key things he was obsessed with chasing - kites, and also he would kick off massively about horses. I have worked on this since and I think got him out of it although I still keep under very close control and watch out if I see these triggers.

For me I took him to a hill quite a long distance from kites and I put him in a sit and onlead and let him watch them and praised him for any calmness - obvioulsy we were quite far away so the intensity was down a bit although he was still pretty intense about them. I said "no," whenever he moved towards them and goodboy when he didn't and lots of calmness and praise. I stayed there and practised that quite a bit. then practiced him offlead but right beside me not letting him move towards them so he knew he was simply not allowed to even think about chasing them.

then over time I got him to be able to walk past, and at first he was looking etc but if he moved towards at all it'd be "no" and "look at me" etc (obvioulsy this point was after working far away). Lots of praise for keeping by my side and not looking or acting calm.

Gradually got it so that he could walk past offlead at a distance very close to me - not letting him move towards - lots of praise for not looking and staying with me.

Now I can walk him very near and he doesn't go for them at all. It possibly isn't watertight and I'll always be very aware if I see one and I keep him really close to me - usually offlead as I practise. I usually warn the kite person first and say I'm working on it and if they see a dog bombing up at any point he's really friendly and just obsessed with kite chasing. People have been lovely and let me practise one they know there is no worry for them.

For me this worked so that I have a dog practicing being calm around kites and it has made life a lot easier and safer (as he would streak across a road as soon as blink if he saw a kite before).

I did a similar thing with horses - not quite the same. And was helped by some riders who let my dog meet their very dog-proof horses and practise acting calm and controlled near but not too near and he's a lot better although I am still very aware if I see horses adn get him on the lead.

For my dog it's a case of rules - there are things he is allowed to chase (balls and toys etc and dogs he plays with etc and I don't tend to worry about squirrels in the woods which he hasn't a hope of catching anyway) and things he is not allowed to chase. And I practise his being under very very close control around those things at a less stimulating distance and gradually move that over time.

I think stopping them practise is a really important thing to stop the addiction to chasing that thing ifyou know what I mean.

I would be tempted to use the hens if they are in a pen to practise because you presumably can control the distance she is from them (??)

A shepherd once told me that it was a lot easier to control things at a very very early stage (so even if they are beginning to look) than once they've got into the mode. (but obviously that's collies so I don't know if relevant or not. I've found this very useful tip)

Obvioulsy I'm no dog trainer and this is what worked with my dog and may cause disapproval I don't know but maybe there is something in it that might make sense or could be adapted (for example my dog isn't into treats so I've never really foudn a way of using them in these particular situations )

This post has been edited by muttlover2: 29th Feb 2012, 4:12 pm
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jackied
post 29th Feb 2012, 4:34 pm
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QUOTE
I think stopping them practise is a really important thing to stop the addiction to chasing that thing ifyou know what I mean.


I know exactly what you mean. It is just so difficult to control access to birds.

We are indeed practicing the distance thing with the chickens and she's getting much better at 'leave it' with them. Bea pecked her on the nose yesterday which I thought might shut her up but she only looked surprised and then started barking again. rolleyes.gif


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rosiemongrel
post 29th Feb 2012, 5:28 pm
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I was going to say head collars, too. Susan Garrett explains why they are a useful training tool, rather than just a management tool.

Head collar vs flat collar

Basically, it boils down to reinforcement. Boinging, barking, lunging, bouncing etc are all self-reinforcing. The headcollar, used as she suggests, does not permit these behaviours. Instead, you offer an alternative source of reinforcement, which is focus on you. I have conditoned a CER to the head collar for both B & P, which was easy and quick to do, and I now find it a useful tool for the on-lead bits of our walks. Pippy has a cat obsession, and a random desire to chase lorries & buses. Barney has fewer, but less predictable triggers (men on ladders is one, windowcleaners and the postman are others).

In an online seminar, I've seen SG demonstrate the use of the head collar when the dog's about to kick off (doesn't matter whether it's in excitement "it's a BIRD!!!" or in crossness "it's that bleddy JRT!"). As soon as you see the dog's ears go forward in that 'I'm fixating and about to explode in 3 ... 2 ... 1' sort of a way, you slide your hand down the lead until you get to the bit under the dog's chin. You use it to turn the dog's attention away from the thing they are about to kick off at. That way, the dog is not lunging to the full extent on the lead in a head collar, which is not a good idea. I have found that using it like this, it nips any cat craziness (with Pip) and anti-postman sentiments (with Barney) in the bud, and they remain much calmer (because they haven't had a full yikes.gif kind of an outburst).

This post has been edited by rosiemongrel: 29th Feb 2012, 5:29 pm
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amber
post 29th Feb 2012, 8:02 pm
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Hm, sounds familiar. When I had two, yes it definitely was more tricky. Luckily Petra is a very quiet lady (though she does like to kill things), so at least I didn't have two mad barkers.

I found with the c-a-t-s just keeping a good hold of her was fine and focus on Oscar, who was the bigger, stronger dog and noisy with it.

Ultimately, a strong 'Leave It' (as in, Oscar thoroughly understood it meant Good Things Happen) said quietly worked. Also asking him to Leave at the very first sign of pricked ears, so that the reacting didn't escalate into barking and lunging.

BUT I do not think that this would have worked if I hadn't 're-adjusted' my relationship with him and assumed more of a leadership position (yes, yes I know that's an invitation for folk to start going on about old fashioned pack leader theories rolleyes.gif ). It was not related to dominance theory but it was related to controlling resources, not allowing him to rule the roost ie rules and boundaries in place, some NILIF and being very clear (but fair).

He was very pleased to Leave It when asked. From being a dog who would spin me right round in a lunge at the sight of a fleeing cat, he became a dog who only pricked his ears and looked interested and was happy to please me and get treats smile.gif

Oscar hated headcollars, they made him depressed. I walked him on either a normal (Mekuti) harness, or a flat leather collar.

This post has been edited by amber: 29th Feb 2012, 8:04 pm
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jackied
post 1st Mar 2012, 8:19 am
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QUOTE
As soon as you see the dog's ears go forward in that 'I'm fixating and about to explode in 3 ... 2 ... 1' sort of a way, you slide your hand down the lead until you get to the bit under the dog's chin. You use it to turn the dog's attention away from the thing they are about to kick off at. That way, the dog is not lunging to the full extent on the lead in a head collar, which is not a good idea.


I can see that in principle but (1) can do you do that holding onto two dogs and (2) can you use a headcollar under a baskerville muzzle? and (3) do you use a double ended leash and clip to the harness as well?

I think it would help with Lucy and birds but not so sure about with Twix and dogs/people. I think controlling his head movements would stress him too much. I guess (thinks aloud) that if Lucy had a headcollar maybe I could control her head with it and keep her looking at me and then I could easily give her the odd treat for good behaviour while I'm doing Look at That with Twix.

I also need to practice more 'sit' when I'm out with both of them. She's pretty good when it's just her but with him she's all 'la la la you're giving Twix attention so I'll watch for birds la la la and oo he's barking now I'll join in'.



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pangolin
post 1st Mar 2012, 8:57 am
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QUOTE(jackied @ 1st Mar 2012, 8:19 am) *

I can see that in principle but (1) can do you do that holding onto two dogs and (2) can you use a headcollar under a baskerville muzzle? and (3) do you use a double ended leash and clip to the harness as well?


I think I do this kind of thing without really realising (just a bit less gracefully as I've got my hands full with two big dogs). A Halti does fit under the regular Baskerville, it's not my favourite of headcollars but I have used one with Casper when I've felt the need to muzzle him (nowadays I don't tend to bother - headcollar means he's on a short lead and from unfortunate experience I know he will wuss out and cry like a baby rather than attack a dog that runs up to him)
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