Teaching The Stand..., Stuck, help please Options

[staffymad]

I have a solid Sit and Down with Lilly Loon but when I try and teach the stand, we are a tiny bit stuck. I clicker train her and this is what happens -

1. Lilly is in a down
2. I give her hand signal (she isn't getting the verbal cue just yet)
3. She lifts her bum, I click
4. She sits down and waits for her treat

This comes from her always offering a sit herself when someone offeres her a treat but it is really stopping us from progressing. At the moment I throw the treat on the floor so I don't treat her sit. I have also started to say 'Stand' and click it when she just stands somewhere to try and get her to understand this.

But in true Lilly form, she ain't having none of it This is the only thing she failed on the novice award and I really would like to rectify this.

So you wonderful peeps, comments/suggestions/advise are more than welcome

[jackied]

I really struggled with this with Twix, and I haven't managed to teach it to Lucy yet either, so I may not be the best person to advise, but -

in the end with Twix I put him on the other side of the baby gate, got out a treat and waited. He tried every trick he knew to get the treat, but he couldn't actually mug me for it because of the gate, so in the end he just stood up for a moment... c/t and treat through the bars at head height ... he soon cottoned on

However when I tried this with Lucy she just barked. Of course.

[Dalsmum]

I told my dog to wait at the kerb before we crossed the road. He would stop and stand waiting to be told to cross so I then introduced the cue of stand.

[belerdog]

Are you standing up when you give her the hand signal?
Sometimes when the dog has got the reward for sitting it takes a while to change the behaviour, try kneeling down next to her so when you use the hand signal for the Stand she doesn't have to look up to you which in turn causes the bottom to hit the floor!
Have the clicker in the same hand as you use for the hand signal and have the treat ready in the other hand but behind your back so the instant you click the treat appears, if she starts watching the direction the treat is coming from, change hands so the clicker/handsignal and treat are reversed.

If she will stand when the hand signal is offered, introduce the cue at the same time, then C&T, repeat as many times as you feel you can do without her losing interest, (remember, severeal small bursts of training are better than one long one and always finish with her wanting to do more).

Gradually withhold the click for a couple for seconds while she is standing, then click and 'Jackpot'!
She then has to work out how she earned the jackpot and will offer a better behaviour, often they will 'faff about' while learning new things, this is normal and means she is getting confused or frustrated so give her (and you) a break.
You may also find her going through her whole repertoire in the hope of earning the click which doesn't help but does make you laugh

When one of my dogs used to bark I simply used to put the clicker into a drawer or on a shelf and walk away, he stopped very quickly unless he got frustrated which was my fault.

I am sure she will pick it up soon and you will pass with flying colours

[staffymad]

Thanks everyone

You may also find her going through her whole repertoire in the hope of earning the click which doesn't help but does make you laugh

Have you been watching us? She does that now already, anything from sit/down/spin/touch something in the hope, lol.

I am sure she will pick it up soon and you will pass with flying colours

She has passed, she was allowed one fault but I still would like to rectify this (perks of having OCD )

I am lucky that she really loves it, in fact when the clicker comes out, she is all 'woho' and starts giving me the repertoire before I even asked her anything

[Skymoo]

I've had similar problems with Kyra and getting her to understand what I was after - got offered everything except a stand for ages. Tried using a lure but this didn't do the trick for us either - then I saw kikopup's video about teaching stays. It's quite long and covers lots of other positioning stuff using a lure, the bit about getting a stand starts about 2 mins in. Turns out I'd been at the wrong height, and luring at the wrong angle. We now have a stand!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk4PPcE1CqY

[jackied]

One of my books suggests luring the dog with a treat that tracks under their chin to their throat. If I do that Lucy falls over backwards! I also have problems with luring sometimes, because I've done quite a lot of 'don't snatch the treat, wait nicely' work to save my fingers.

[kittypimms]

One thing that helped FDog learn the stand was the pronunciation - for some reason some dogs don't understand "stand", and so I've taught him "stand-ER", so in 2 syllables. No idea why or how it works, it just does!!

I also taught using an obviously different hand signal from stay, down or wait. The other big difficulty I found with FDog was getting him to stand, and stay. So I started off just C/T with the "stand-ER" word when he was already stood up (and still!) rather than from a sit or a down. Once he sort of "got" this, I tried it from a sit, and made sure I C/T as soon as he stood, and before he moved...!

Hope that makes sort of some kind of sense!!!!

[GSDSian]

If you're going to use a lure you need to think about where her head is going to finish up and keep the lure at that height. Too high and she'll scurry into a sit, too low and she's likely to drop into a down.

I like to teach a stand from a sit while I'm sat on the sofa (I'm a lazy trainer ) With her sat right into you, between your legs if you like. Wait for her to do something. In that position her options are limited and one of them, and the most likely is to pop backwards into a stand so she can move away. Click. I wouldn't worry about her going straight back into a sit but if you want to stop that pattern drop the treat on the floor or deliver it lower than head height.

The other way you can use to get a forward movement from the sit to the stand is to use a hand touch. As she already knows touch it won't be a huge progression for her to step forward from a sit to touch your hand.

[staffymad]

One thing that helped FDog learn the stand was the pronunciation - for some reason some dogs don't understand "stand", and so I've taught him "stand-ER", so in 2 syllables. No idea why or how it works, it just does!!

I also taught using an obviously different hand signal from stay, down or wait. The other big difficulty I found with FDog was getting him to stand, and stay. So I started off just C/T with the "stand-ER" word when he was already stood up (and still!) rather than from a sit or a down. Once he sort of "got" this, I tried it from a sit, and made sure I C/T as soon as he stood, and before he moved...!

Hope that makes sort of some kind of sense!!!!

Thank you The hand signal is different, actually for all positions she does it on verbal cue so I dropped the hand signal from it.

If you're going to use a lure you need to think about where her head is going to finish up and keep the lure at that height. Too high and she'll scurry into a sit, too low and she's likely to drop into a down.

I like to teach a stand from a sit while I'm sat on the sofa (I'm a lazy trainer ) With her sat right into you, between your legs if you like. Wait for her to do something. In that position her options are limited and one of them, and the most likely is to pop backwards into a stand so she can move away. Click. I wouldn't worry about her going straight back into a sit but if you want to stop that pattern drop the treat on the floor or deliver it lower than head height.

The other way you can use to get a forward movement from the sit to the stand is to use a hand touch. As she already knows touch it won't be a huge progression for her to step forward from a sit to touch your hand.

Thank you I am not using a lure as she gets the hand signal, its just the imidiate sit i am trying to loose as I don't want to confuse matters with the C/T half way up or sat down (she is quicker than me ). I try the throwing of teh treat on the floor and see if that works.

[GSDSian]

Thank you I am not using a lure as she gets the hand signal, its just the imidiate sit i am trying to loose as I don't want to confuse matters with the C/T half way up or sat down (she is quicker than me ). I try the throwing of teh treat on the floor and see if that works.

Ok, so if she already knows what stand is you just need to teach her to hold the position for longer. In the same way as you do with any position. Wait for a bit longer before you click and reward, even if its only a split second to start with.

[misty11]

It's odd that staying in a stand seems to be a 'problem' position for alot of dogs, but sit and down is easy to teach. I suppose because most people don't think of teaching stand. I know it's different teaching puppies but I teach all the positions at the same time, moving from one to the other (if that makes sense?)
Can she do stand from a down? and then stand to down, down to sit, etc. Make her think about the different positions. Or ask for stand and then spin, or anything else she can do.

[staffymad]

Ok, so if she already knows what stand is you just need to teach her to hold the position for longer. In the same way as you do with any position. Wait for a bit longer before you click and reward, even if its only a split second to start with.

Thank you, I will give it a try

It's odd that staying in a stand seems to be a 'problem' position for alot of dogs, but sit and down is easy to teach. I suppose because most people don't think of teaching stand. I know it's different teaching puppies but I teach all the positions at the same time, moving from one to the other (if that makes sense?)
Can she do stand from a down? and then stand to down, down to sit, etc. Make her think about the different positions. Or ask for stand and then spin, or anything else she can do.

She can indeed, a sit from a down (although I teach that as a 'up') then back down, then a 'I would like a stand' , spin, then sit, spin, then down etc. I will never teach it in a routine where it is always the same as my old boy could only do positions if you started from scratch. Lesson learned