IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

> Training advice

Dogpages encourages owners to learn the skills to train their dogs with modern non-coercive methods and not to train with pain. Posts and advice given must reflect this policy.

For serious problems, owners should always seek good professional advice.

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Teaching The Stand..., Stuck, help please
staffymad
post 28th Feb 2012, 3:24 pm
Post #1


Member
****

Group: Member
Posts: 3963
Joined: 15 Dec 04
Member No.: 11452



I have a solid Sit and Down with Lilly Loon but when I try and teach the stand, we are a tiny bit stuck. I clicker train her and this is what happens -

1. Lilly is in a down
2. I give her hand signal (she isn't getting the verbal cue just yet)
3. She lifts her bum, I click
4. She sits down and waits for her treat rolleyes.gif

This comes from her always offering a sit herself when someone offeres her a treat but it is really stopping us from progressing. At the moment I throw the treat on the floor so I don't treat her sit. I have also started to say 'Stand' and click it when she just stands somewhere to try and get her to understand this.

But in true Lilly form, she ain't having none of it rolleyes.gif This is the only thing she failed on the novice award and I really would like to rectify this.

So you wonderful peeps, comments/suggestions/advise are more than welcome flowers.gif
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
jackied
post 28th Feb 2012, 4:11 pm
Post #2


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 6805
Joined: 11 Sep 08
From: Cambridge
Member No.: 40705



I really struggled with this with Twix, and I haven't managed to teach it to Lucy yet either, so I may not be the best person to advise, but -

in the end with Twix I put him on the other side of the baby gate, got out a treat and waited. He tried every trick he knew to get the treat, but he couldn't actually mug me for it because of the gate, so in the end he just stood up for a moment... c/t and treat through the bars at head height ... he soon cottoned on

However when I tried this with Lucy she just barked. Of course. rolleyes.gif


--------------------
www.www.jackieduckworthart.co.uk

Pet portraits and original artwork.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Dalsmum
post 28th Feb 2012, 4:18 pm
Post #3


Member
****

Group: Member
Posts: 11061
Joined: 17 Oct 04
From: far north of Scotland
Member No.: 10491



I told my dog to wait at the kerb before we crossed the road. He would stop and stand waiting to be told to cross so I then introduced the cue of stand.


User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
belerdog
post 28th Feb 2012, 4:32 pm
Post #4


Member
****

Group: Member
Posts: 625
Joined: 2 Sep 07
From: Cheshire
Member No.: 32962



Are you standing up when you give her the hand signal?
Sometimes when the dog has got the reward for sitting it takes a while to change the behaviour, try kneeling down next to her so when you use the hand signal for the Stand she doesn't have to look up to you which in turn causes the bottom to hit the floor!
Have the clicker in the same hand as you use for the hand signal and have the treat ready in the other hand but behind your back so the instant you click the treat appears, if she starts watching the direction the treat is coming from, change hands so the clicker/handsignal and treat are reversed.

If she will stand when the hand signal is offered, introduce the cue at the same time, then C&T, repeat as many times as you feel you can do without her losing interest, (remember, severeal small bursts of training are better than one long one and always finish with her wanting to do more).

Gradually withhold the click for a couple for seconds while she is standing, then click and 'Jackpot'!
She then has to work out how she earned the jackpot and will offer a better behaviour, often they will 'faff about' while learning new things, this is normal and means she is getting confused or frustrated so give her (and you) a break.
You may also find her going through her whole repertoire in the hope of earning the click which doesn't help but does make you laugh lol.gif

When one of my dogs used to bark I simply used to put the clicker into a drawer or on a shelf and walk away, he stopped very quickly unless he got frustrated which was my fault.

I am sure she will pick it up soon and you will pass with flying colours smile.gif
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
staffymad
post 28th Feb 2012, 5:11 pm
Post #5


Member
****

Group: Member
Posts: 3963
Joined: 15 Dec 04
Member No.: 11452



Thanks everyone flowers.gif

QUOTE(belerdog @ 28th Feb 2012, 4:32 pm) *

You may also find her going through her whole repertoire in the hope of earning the click which doesn't help but does make you laugh lol.gif

Have you been watching us? rolleyes.gif lol.gif She does that now already, anything from sit/down/spin/touch something in the hope, lol.

QUOTE(belerdog @ 28th Feb 2012, 4:32 pm) *

I am sure she will pick it up soon and you will pass with flying colours smile.gif


She has passed, she was allowed one fault but I still would like to rectify this (perks of having OCD lol.gif )

I am lucky that she really loves it, in fact when the clicker comes out, she is all 'woho' and starts giving me the repertoire before I even asked her anything lol.gif wub.gif
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Skymoo
post 28th Feb 2012, 5:41 pm
Post #6


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 165
Joined: 15 Feb 08
From: Bristol
Member No.: 36898



I've had similar problems with Kyra and getting her to understand what I was after - got offered everything except a stand for ages. Tried using a lure but this didn't do the trick for us either - then I saw kikopup's video about teaching stays. It's quite long and covers lots of other positioning stuff using a lure, the bit about getting a stand starts about 2 mins in. Turns out I'd been at the wrong height, and luring at the wrong angle. We now have a stand!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk4PPcE1CqY
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
jackied
post 29th Feb 2012, 7:38 am
Post #7


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 6805
Joined: 11 Sep 08
From: Cambridge
Member No.: 40705



One of my books suggests luring the dog with a treat that tracks under their chin to their throat. If I do that Lucy falls over backwards! I also have problems with luring sometimes, because I've done quite a lot of 'don't snatch the treat, wait nicely' work to save my fingers.



--------------------
www.www.jackieduckworthart.co.uk

Pet portraits and original artwork.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
kittypimms
post 29th Feb 2012, 9:16 am
Post #8


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 3674
Joined: 24 Nov 09
From: In a fort. made of boxes...
Member No.: 47304



One thing that helped FDog learn the stand was the pronunciation - for some reason some dogs don't understand "stand", and so I've taught him "stand-ER", so in 2 syllables. No idea why or how it works, it just does!!

I also taught using an obviously different hand signal from stay, down or wait. The other big difficulty I found with FDog was getting him to stand, and stay. So I started off just C/T with the "stand-ER" word when he was already stood up (and still!) rather than from a sit or a down. Once he sort of "got" this, I tried it from a sit, and made sure I C/T as soon as he stood, and before he moved...!

Hope that makes sort of some kind of sense!!!!

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
GSDSian
post 29th Feb 2012, 9:49 am
Post #9


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 16255
Joined: 12 Dec 05
Member No.: 18077



If you're going to use a lure you need to think about where her head is going to finish up and keep the lure at that height. Too high and she'll scurry into a sit, too low and she's likely to drop into a down.

I like to teach a stand from a sit while I'm sat on the sofa (I'm a lazy trainer tongue.gif ) With her sat right into you, between your legs if you like. Wait for her to do something. In that position her options are limited and one of them, and the most likely is to pop backwards into a stand so she can move away. Click. I wouldn't worry about her going straight back into a sit but if you want to stop that pattern drop the treat on the floor or deliver it lower than head height.

The other way you can use to get a forward movement from the sit to the stand is to use a hand touch. As she already knows touch it won't be a huge progression for her to step forward from a sit to touch your hand.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
staffymad
post 29th Feb 2012, 10:31 am
Post #10


Member
****

Group: Member
Posts: 3963
Joined: 15 Dec 04
Member No.: 11452



QUOTE(kittypimms @ 29th Feb 2012, 9:16 am) *

One thing that helped FDog learn the stand was the pronunciation - for some reason some dogs don't understand "stand", and so I've taught him "stand-ER", so in 2 syllables. No idea why or how it works, it just does!!

I also taught using an obviously different hand signal from stay, down or wait. The other big difficulty I found with FDog was getting him to stand, and stay. So I started off just C/T with the "stand-ER" word when he was already stood up (and still!) rather than from a sit or a down. Once he sort of "got" this, I tried it from a sit, and made sure I C/T as soon as he stood, and before he moved...!

Hope that makes sort of some kind of sense!!!!

Thank you flowers.gif The hand signal is different, actually for all positions she does it on verbal cue so I dropped the hand signal from it.

QUOTE(GSDSian @ 29th Feb 2012, 9:49 am) *

If you're going to use a lure you need to think about where her head is going to finish up and keep the lure at that height. Too high and she'll scurry into a sit, too low and she's likely to drop into a down.

I like to teach a stand from a sit while I'm sat on the sofa (I'm a lazy trainer tongue.gif ) With her sat right into you, between your legs if you like. Wait for her to do something. In that position her options are limited and one of them, and the most likely is to pop backwards into a stand so she can move away. Click. I wouldn't worry about her going straight back into a sit but if you want to stop that pattern drop the treat on the floor or deliver it lower than head height.

The other way you can use to get a forward movement from the sit to the stand is to use a hand touch. As she already knows touch it won't be a huge progression for her to step forward from a sit to touch your hand.

Thank you flowers.gif I am not using a lure as she gets the hand signal, its just the imidiate sit i am trying to loose as I don't want to confuse matters with the C/T half way up or sat down (she is quicker than me rolleyes.gif ). I try the throwing of teh treat on the floor and see if that works.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
GSDSian
post 29th Feb 2012, 12:04 pm
Post #11


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 16255
Joined: 12 Dec 05
Member No.: 18077



QUOTE(staffymad @ 29th Feb 2012, 10:31 am) *

Thank you flowers.gif I am not using a lure as she gets the hand signal, its just the imidiate sit i am trying to loose as I don't want to confuse matters with the C/T half way up or sat down (she is quicker than me rolleyes.gif ). I try the throwing of teh treat on the floor and see if that works.


Ok, so if she already knows what stand is you just need to teach her to hold the position for longer. In the same way as you do with any position. Wait for a bit longer before you click and reward, even if its only a split second to start with.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
misty11
post 1st Mar 2012, 3:35 pm
Post #12


Member
Group Icon

Group: Sponsor Member
Posts: 5553
Joined: 4 May 03
From: Dartford, Kent
Member No.: 4551



It's odd that staying in a stand seems to be a 'problem' position for alot of dogs, but sit and down is easy to teach. I suppose because most people don't think of teaching stand. I know it's different teaching puppies but I teach all the positions at the same time, moving from one to the other (if that makes sense?)
Can she do stand from a down? and then stand to down, down to sit, etc. Make her think about the different positions. Or ask for stand and then spin, or anything else she can do.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
staffymad
post 1st Mar 2012, 4:02 pm
Post #13


Member
****

Group: Member
Posts: 3963
Joined: 15 Dec 04
Member No.: 11452



QUOTE(GSDSian @ 29th Feb 2012, 12:04 pm) *

Ok, so if she already knows what stand is you just need to teach her to hold the position for longer. In the same way as you do with any position. Wait for a bit longer before you click and reward, even if its only a split second to start with.

Thank you, I will give it a try flowers.gif

QUOTE(misty11 @ 1st Mar 2012, 3:35 pm) *

It's odd that staying in a stand seems to be a 'problem' position for alot of dogs, but sit and down is easy to teach. I suppose because most people don't think of teaching stand. I know it's different teaching puppies but I teach all the positions at the same time, moving from one to the other (if that makes sense?)
Can she do stand from a down? and then stand to down, down to sit, etc. Make her think about the different positions. Or ask for stand and then spin, or anything else she can do.


She can indeed, a sit from a down (although I teach that as a 'up') then back down, then a 'I would like a stand' rolleyes.gif , spin, then sit, spin, then down etc. I will never teach it in a routine where it is always the same as my old boy could only do positions if you started from scratch. Lesson learned rolleyes.gif lol.gif
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 29th August 2014 - 8:01 am