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melbury
post 3rd Jul 2017, 7:12 pm
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QUOTE(ceri1 @ 3rd Jul 2017, 11:30 am) *

Even for lepto2 you have to go back for a 2nd injection. Depending on the age of the first DHP, you may need a 2nd one of them as well (if given before 10 weeks). Here is the British veterinary association's comment on the L4 story... https://www.bva.co.uk/News-campaigns-and-po...vac-L4-vaccine/


Thanks for the information.

I don't really know what to do now as he is going on Wednesday for the second lot.

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ceri1
post 3rd Jul 2017, 8:27 pm
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Chat with your vet: is he likely to go in water? Do you walk places like canals or urban parks where there will be lots of rats? Has your vet ever seen cases of lepto in the area and were the dogs vaccinated?
My dogs are lepto4 vaccinated. I think if there are more reported suspected reactions at the moment it is most likely down to the phenomenon that all drugs get more reports when new as people are looking out for them more. But that's my personal weighing of the risks.
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nikirushka
post 4th Jul 2017, 8:23 am
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He's so fluffyyyyyyy!

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hazzy1066
post 4th Jul 2017, 9:17 am
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I have always been a bit worried when taking my dogs for vaccinations due to the potential risks and I generally didn't have my older dogs done. However having had 3 young dogs in the past few years we have continued their vaccinations.

Unfortunately we took our 2 year old Chihuahua less than 2 kg the other week to re-start his vaccinations as I just missed his booster, he had puppy jabs before we had him. As he previously hasn't had any other injections I cant comment but upon having the vaccination he screamed and wet himself. This was about 6.15 pm. He came home and had a wee but then would not move for an evening wee and became very hunched and distant during the evening. He slept but was very zonked out. I did ring the out of hours vet but she had not seen a reaction before and I didn't think he was ill enough to go back to the vets at that point.


The next morning he did wee/poo and eat but would hardly move and was still hunched and his eyes or lids were blinking and flickering. We took him to the vets who checked him over and gave us some pain killer. She didn't think he had a neurological reaction but I honestly thought the vaccination had brain damaged him. During the week he gradually got back to normal apart from I do think his eyes flicker/blink a lot more than they did previously.

I have since researched vaccinations again and read horror stories about them especially Lepto 4 on a Facebook site. There are a lot of healthy dogs that appear to have died after their vaccination and others developed problems later on. He did have Lepto 2 and again there are horror stories too. There is mention of the suspension that the vaccination is actually in that is not good for the dogs either.

My yorkie had her booster at the same time my chi had his vaccination and she appears to be fine. However I have decided that I will never be vaccinating my dogs/cats ever again. I cannot get the scream he made out of my head and the subsequent reaction he had and the thought that he now may have something neurological going on and put him at risk of auto immune disease, kidney failure that get mentioned in various forums.

I appreciate 1000's of dogs are vaccinated every day and its only a small % of dogs where things happen but having seen this reaction first hand and not knowing what this vaccination has potentially done to my dog I cannot take that risk again as this event has truly devastated me.
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melbury
post 4th Jul 2017, 11:36 am
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Thanks for all of your very informative replies. I have decided not to go ahead with the second Lepto4 jab, it is just too worrying. Presumably the first Lepto4 jab will give him some protection anyway.

Does anyone know where you stand with pet insurance if you don't have all of the vaccinations? It seems very unfair if they can hold you to ransom by not covering you unless you comply.
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melbury
post 4th Jul 2017, 11:37 am
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QUOTE(nikirushka @ 4th Jul 2017, 9:23 am) *

He's so fluffyyyyyyy!

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Thank you once again Niki for putting my pictures on, greatly appreciated.
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hazzy1066
post 4th Jul 2017, 11:51 am
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We have always been insured with Petplan and they have always paid out whether the dogs were vaccinated or not. Obviously they were not diseases that a vaccine could have prevented. I haven't however read the small print recently to see if anything has changed.

I don't like to tell people my horror story over the vaccination to put them off but its useful to be informed. I did speak to another Chihuahua owner who had hers vaccinated (Lepto 2) every year and most recently at 15 years old with no problems. Having small dogs that don't do much walking I hope the risk of catching anything is low and they don't go in kennels. Good luck with your little puppy
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moorx
post 4th Jul 2017, 4:45 pm
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We do not have Sam vaccinated on veterinary advice, as he has an immune disorder. All our other dogs are vaccinated.

When I checked with Pet Plan, they stated that the only impact would be that they wouldn't cover for those diseases which could have been prevented by vaccination.
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melbury
post 4th Jul 2017, 8:14 pm
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Thanks for all the advice, I really appreciate it.

I have been checking back through our previous two dogs vaccination records and see that the Lepto vaccine only commenced in 2010 as Lepto2 and then morphed into Lepto4 in 2014, so prior to that presumably it didn't exist.

Also interesting that our previous girl (who died in 2008) received the core vaccines every single year, whereas now they are three-yearly.

I wonder if the drug companies are concerned about their profits falling, or I am just being cynical. It must also have an impact on vets profits.

So all our dogs prior to 2010 did the exact same walks and were absolutely fine and this is what is causing me to doubt the necessity of injecting with Lepto4.

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Dalsmum
post 4th Jul 2017, 8:48 pm
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Lepto has many strains.

Lepto2 covered the two common ones in this country.

New strains found in Europe have been found in some areas so Lepto4 was brought out to cover these as well.

You could consider titre testing for the core vaccines but you can't titre test for Lepto.

A few weeks after vaccination you can titre test for immunity as it should be high then.

However, in later years a low titre does not necessarily mean low immunity as the antibodies only reappear when challenged by the disease. So you now have a quandry.

A friend who had not vaccinated for twenty years tested a 10 year old dog for her vet's interest. He showed high immunity to all the core disease. The dog does go to shows each week so has picked up immunity from that.

Another friend who titre tests makes sure her dogs are mixed with others before testing to ensure the antibodies are stimulated.




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ceri1
post 4th Jul 2017, 8:50 pm
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I believe there is some evidence that there is an increase in the extra types of lepto coming in from Europe (along with other diseases like Babesia) with the increase in travel. The 2 "old"types are still massively more common, so I'd certainly think about getting the 2nd lepto2 done if you aren't sure about the lepto 4.
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mokee
post 5th Jul 2017, 1:08 am
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I've fought this same battle in my head every time we get around to 'booster' time of the year. I always end up in the same place - thinking about how I'd feel if I didn't vaccinate and they did happen to catch something that could be vaccinated against. I've seen puppies with distemper 30+ years ago when I was young and it was horrific, they died despite veterinary treatment, it was heartbreaking. Then, last year, Sprocket was on a training course with a dog who didn't turn up for class one week because the weekend before she'd been playing with a dog who had since been diagnosed with Parvo - that was far too close for comfort for my liking.

With all of the sick puppies getting shipped in by the bucketload from Ireland and Eastern Europe, for me I wouldn't take the chance - I've never met a dog that had a reaction from a vaccine, but we seem to have another outbreak of Parvo every year around here, and personally I just won't take the risk of my dogs catching it, or any other preventable disease.

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nikirushka
post 5th Jul 2017, 7:31 am
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QUOTE(mokee @ 5th Jul 2017, 2:08 am) *

I've never met a dog that had a reaction from a vaccine


You were a couple of years too late to meet him but Remy did, quite a severe one to his very first vaccine. It had to be counteracted before it did any lasting damage (or worse). His first booster was then given with a little antihistamine to stop another reaction, and he was fine after that for the two following boosters he had but I firmly believe that the rare thyroid problem he had was down to that reaction along with chronic joint pain and gut problems. I've certainly heard of plenty of dogs having reactions, one case almost identical to his. That particular dog was PTS at 4 years old after a raft of health problems including idiopathic joint pain, all of which started after that first reaction.

In the grand scheme of things, with the numbers of dogs being vaccinated and boostered every year, reactions are however very rare.

Despite that experience with Remy, I do still give all the puppy shots if I have a puppy - that to me is essential but boosters, not so much. I've got two here who never had their first booster or any since. The evidence points more and more to lifelong immunity from vaccinations (this is why the advice is now every 3 years rather than every year - the vet industry and public demand is slowly catching up with the science) and having had a dog die from an autoiummune condition (granted, hers wasn't triggered by a booster but that particular disease often is), I do not feel comfortable taking the risk of giving unnecessary boosters.

I get where you're coming from though and it's a rock and a hard place situation - it's a risk either way, unless you're titre testing the dogs annually and for yours, that would be an extra pressure on their anxieties so I fully understand why you've made the choice you have.

What frightens me now is the number of people not giving puppy vaccs because of the risks of vaccination and it being increasingly considered 'unnecessary' - it's not, for a young pup it's essential IMO and herd immunity will no longer work if the majority of puppies aren't vaccinated. How important it is to have two shots of Lepto4 I don't know, I've not done enough research into that particular one yet.

This post has been edited by nikirushka: 5th Jul 2017, 7:34 am
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melbury
post 5th Jul 2017, 4:42 pm
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Well I didn't have the second Lepto4 vaccination done this afternoon. Vet was fine about it and said it is ultimately my decision (even though she vaccinates her own dogs with it).

So he has had the two "core" vaccinations and just the first Lepto4 four weeks ago. Strange thing is she has written in that next vaccinations are due in July 2018. I thought they were three yearly now for the core ones?

This post has been edited by melbury: 5th Jul 2017, 4:43 pm
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nikirushka
post 5th Jul 2017, 7:03 pm
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Lepto will be an annual one, but it's worth checking with the vet as some practices do still do everything annually when they shouldn't.
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