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> I Don't Wanna Come To You, I Wanna Go Play!, tips to improve recall please
Fever
post 31st Jan 2017, 11:04 am
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Sorry you are upset - that's not my intention at all, and I certainly wasn't criticising the way you are with your dogs, in fact I've got a lot of respect for what you do and feel sad that you feel the need to be defensive.

I'm always interested to hear what works for people with their dogs, but I also want to talk about what works for mine. If we don't share different ideas, I don't see how we can learn new things. It's true that my approach is a challenge to more orthodox training, just as reward based training was a challenge to traditions 'command and control' in the 1990s. Reward based training was a massive step forward and improved the lives of thousands of dogs. But where we go next, to me, is open to (lively) discussion and negotiation
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mokee
post 31st Jan 2017, 1:00 pm
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QUOTE(Fever @ 31st Jan 2017, 11:04 am) *

Sorry you are upset - that's not my intention at all, and I certainly wasn't criticising the way you are with your dogs, in fact I've got a lot of respect for what you do and feel sad that you feel the need to be defensive.

I'm always interested to hear what works for people with their dogs, but I also want to talk about what works for mine. If we don't share different ideas, I don't see how we can learn new things. It's true that my approach is a challenge to more orthodox training, just as reward based training was a challenge to traditions 'command and control' in the 1990s. Reward based training was a massive step forward and improved the lives of thousands of dogs. But where we go next, to me, is open to (lively) discussion and negotiation



...we should also re-examine the advice given by respected trainers and behaviourists. Much of it is terrible advice, and produces dogs that aren't able to think for themselves and are totally dependent on their owners, or rather the treats in the owner's pocket.

It is SO important to give dogs time to understand what we want, instead of using shortcuts such as houselines and food rewards.

...and that is why I regard reward-based training as damaging. it is particularly damaging if it has been used to get dogs to do things that they otherwise would not - such as ignoring other dogs...

Food is literally survival, so to make food dependent in any way on performing a particular behaviour is not only unfair, I would go as far too say that it is counterproductive. Why? because you get compliance, not learning.

I know exactly how damaging these reward-based techniques are because I did them with my own dogs. I used clicker training, which at the time I thought was fantastic...

I also don't get the 'silly' behaviour when I pick up harnesses or leads, which is often caused by the use of food to 'train' a dog to ''accept' a harness.

This philosophy is very different from the prevailing orthodoxy represented by such illuminaries as Chirag Patel, Victoria Stillwell, Ian Dunbar etc. I know these people are vastly more knowledgeable and experienced than I am, but when I watch them working with dogs, I see little understanding of the dog's real skills, and I often see someone who is feeding a dog and getting superficial, performative, human-centred behaviour. It was only when I stopped reading their books, watching their videos and attending their seminars and started observing dogs for myself instead that I really started to understand dogs at a profound level.

...I don't rate her training, which is the usual positve reward-based...

Cruciate injuries are particularly common in agility dogs, and shoulder injuries in my experience, but what the clinic says seems intuitively sensible, as many agility dogs are fitter than pet dogs. However, if you take a bigger picture, I suspect conditions triggered by stress and over production of adrenaline are more common in dogs whose owners compete with them...

...anecdotally I do come across more agility and flyball dogs that die at around the 7-10 year age, compared with pet dogs, which seem to reach around 12-14 mark.

To me, getting a dog to walk on his hind legs, or go through a tunnel, or race up and down hurdles, are similar in nature to those early experiments. After all, we long ago eschewed training elephants to sit on stools or lions to jump through flaming hoops – why are we still doing the equivalent tricks with our dogs? There is only one reason – they are biddable and easy to train using coercion, and we don’t want to understand them for what they are, rather than what we want them to be.

I'd go as far to say that training is patronising to dogs, who are capable of so much more...

...you are going to attribute other human characteristics such as wanting to win, wanting to compete etc. And that's where the abuse - not too strong a word - begins...

...it may also suggest that dogs who receive a lot of training lose some of their canine social etiquette - I have certainly found that to be the case with dogs I have worked with, and that etiquette is often replaced by artificial exercises such as 'Look At That', which does not replicate normal canine interaction...




I will say right from the start that I'm not trying to upset you with this post, so I'm sorry if that is the outcome, sensitivity has never been my strong point. But like Niki I've been getting more and more irritated with some of the posts you have been making lately and I hope that by cutting and pasting just some of the comments you've made in the most recent chatter thread you might see for yourself why we're feeling the way we evidently both are when you read them back.

Every comment you've made above is critical of one training technique or another used by most of the people on this forum. I think everybody here has been very tolerant of your ideas and philosophy, even when we don't agree - but I don't see the same tolerance from you. I totally understand that you're absolutely passionate about your philosophy and the way you see the future of dog training - that is admirable and something for all of us to aspire to. But the focus on 'one right way' of dog training that excludes everything that doesn't fit your philosophy as in some way damaging to dogs is, at best, blinkered.

I certainly wouldn't want you to lose your passion, it is a wonderful thing, I'd just ask you to consider not to be so damning about the ways the rest of us choose to train our dogs, even when it doesn't agree with your philosophy.


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mokee
post 31st Jan 2017, 1:02 pm
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And to the OP, I'm so sorry about hijacking your thread.
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Fever
post 31st Jan 2017, 1:19 pm
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I'm sorry this has been hijacked too. I stand by my comments, but am somewhat sorry you have reproduced them here, which seems inappropriate to me.

I posted those comments in the context of a candid, lively and intellectual debate about different philosophies of dog training and management which, by all accounts, people enjoyed, learned from and continued to contribute to, in spite of differing views. If you've spent any time in a university, you will know that people can hold passionate views and are sometimes trenchant about expressing them in an atmosphere of acceptance and congruence - even where people fundamentally disagree. That is a familiar environment for me, perhaps not for others. And I have always made it clear that these are my views, based on my experience and knowledge - are you saying I am not free to express those views?

Given what I have said above, I am not upset by your post and appreciate the time spent to compile it, but for one thing - none of the things I have said are a personal attack on anyone, and I very much resent the implication that they are.

This post has been edited by Fever: 31st Jan 2017, 1:20 pm
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mokee
post 31st Jan 2017, 1:31 pm
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QUOTE(Fever @ 31st Jan 2017, 1:19 pm) *

I'm sorry this has been hijacked too. I stand by my comments, but am somewhat sorry you have reproduced them here, which seems inappropriate to me.

I posted those comments in the context of a candid, lively and intellectual debate about different philosophies of dog training and management which, by all accounts, people enjoyed, learned from and continued to contribute to, in spite of differing views. If you've spent any time in a university, you will know that people can hold passionate views and are sometimes trenchant about expressing them in an atmosphere of acceptance and congruence - even where people fundamentally disagree. That is a familiar environment for me, perhaps not for others. And I have always made it clear that these are my views, based on my experience and knowledge - are you saying I am not free to express those views?

Given what I have said above, I am not upset by your post and appreciate the time spent to compile it, but for one thing - none of the things I have said are a personal attack on anyone, and I very much resent the implication that they are.


Wow. And this is the edited version?
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Fever
post 31st Jan 2017, 1:32 pm
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Your point?
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mokee
post 31st Jan 2017, 2:01 pm
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QUOTE(Fever @ 31st Jan 2017, 1:32 pm) *

Your point?


I'm not going to comment any further as I've clearly upset you and I don't want to make that any worse.
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Fever
post 31st Jan 2017, 2:06 pm
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You won't make anything worse, Mokee, honestly smile.gif . I'm not upset, but I don't wish to let the implication that I was making personal attacks stand because it isn't true.

People might take the comments personally, but that's not at all how they are intended and I would hate them to be taken that way. If it weren't for Dog Pages, I wouldn't even be here, spouting my views and opinions! I have learned loads from this site and the people on it, many of whom have much more experience than I do.

But...as you see, I love a debate, the more candid and open the better. I'll try and express myself more moderately in future, but please don't ever take anything I write as a personal attack - it really is not intended in that way.

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nikirushka
post 31st Jan 2017, 3:10 pm
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QUOTE(Fever @ 30th Jan 2017, 10:03 pm) *

It's great that that works for you. Where we differ, is that if you don't want them to ping off, you control them by keeping them by you (presumably using a trained cue of some kind). That's exactly the route I no longer take with my dogs, since I found it better that they think for themselves.


Are you really surprised that I'm getting defensive when you posted this after my explanation of how my dogs behave? This is about as close as you could have gotten to saying "your dogs cannot think for themselves" without actually saying it. You might not be overtly putting my methods down, but you're only just dancing round the edge of doing that. Trying to dress it up as debate and idea-sharing is not working for me this time.
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Fever
post 31st Jan 2017, 6:45 pm
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QUOTE(nikirushka @ 31st Jan 2017, 3:10 pm) *

Are you really surprised that I'm getting defensive when you posted this after my explanation of how my dogs behave? This is about as close as you could have gotten to saying "your dogs cannot think for themselves" without actually saying it. You might not be overtly putting my methods down, but you're only just dancing round the edge of doing that. Trying to dress it up as debate and idea-sharing is not working for me this time.

Sorry, that won't wash. I'm not taking responsibility for how you feel - that's your choice. What you do works for you and your dogs (as I've acknowledged), and what I do works for mine. People can make their own minds up.
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mokee
post 31st Jan 2017, 8:03 pm
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QUOTE(Fever @ 31st Jan 2017, 1:19 pm) *

I'm sorry this has been hijacked too. I stand by my comments, but am somewhat sorry you have reproduced them here, which seems inappropriate to me.

I posted those comments in the context of a candid, lively and intellectual debate about different philosophies of dog training and management which, by all accounts, people enjoyed, learned from and continued to contribute to, in spite of differing views. If you've spent any time in a university, you will know that people can hold passionate views and are sometimes trenchant about expressing them in an atmosphere of acceptance and congruence - even where people fundamentally disagree. That is a familiar environment for me, perhaps not for others. And I have always made it clear that these are my views, based on my experience and knowledge - are you saying I am not free to express those views?

Given what I have said above, I am not upset by your post and appreciate the time spent to compile it, but for one thing - none of the things I have said are a personal attack on anyone, and I very much resent the implication that they are.


Okay, if you're not upset or offended, I'll say that I'm sorry you thought it was inappropriate for me to copy and paste your comments. It was intended as an illustration of some of the comments that you have made recently that I, personally, have found uncomfortable reading. I never considered for one minute that you would be upset by that as the comments were all taken from another thread on this forum which can be freely read by all of the same people who are reading this thread, it just never crossed my mind that you might take offence.

Secondly, I honestly have never considered that any of your comments regarding dog training have been intended as a personal attack on anybody, and I'm genuinely surprised that you thought I was implying that, I promise that isn't the case at all. I probably should have been clearer with my comments, so to clarify:

I think that recently you have made a lot of sweeping statements that are largely derogatory about dog training methods and teaching practices that you disagree with. These methods and practices are used by the vast majority of people who use this forum, and I can fully see why anybody who trains using these methods would take umbrage at some of your comments, but I don't feel that this applies to me personally, as I'm not a dog trainer. I have, however, found some of your comments regarding people who do agility with their dogs really quite insulting, although I'm fully aware that these were not aimed at me personally.

What I am struggling with, Fever, is that although I have tried my best to keep any disagreement I have with you polite and civil, even though we seem to be disagreeing about an awful lot lately, you have made several really quite personal comments both in this thread and the one over in chatter about me recently inferring that you find me uneducated. Whether I've been to University or not isn't really relevant - but what I have always been taught is that criticism should always be given constructively and should be taken in the same spirit, no matter how heated the debate, and that is what I've always tried to do.

This post has been edited by mokee: 31st Jan 2017, 8:18 pm
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traceymcl
post 31st Jan 2017, 9:34 pm
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To the OP - the other thing to consider is how rewarding recalls are to your dog? I think that sometimes we get into the habit of giving little tiny pieces of food as rewards. But - recalls in the face of the chance for a game is a big deal to lots of dogs - and I think that making a massive fuss of them can really help. Multiple bits of food or food from a little plastic tub so it is more like a meal or multiple pieces of food thrown so it can be chased are all good.

Plus - if you have a willing friend with a dog who likes playing with your dog, you could set up multiple instances of recalls meaning that gets lots of treats and then is allowed to play with his mate. smile.gif
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traceymcl
post 31st Jan 2017, 9:50 pm
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I'm finding it interesting how upsetting people are finding Fever's posts. I'm quite fascinated by the approach but wouldn't adopt it. I would find doing what Fever does quite boring - and I think the dogs I have would too.

I suspect that much of it is down to our different experiences and lifestyles. Fever has talked about how damaging clicker training was to her dogs. It isn't surprising that somebody who has had that sort of experience would seek to avoid it.

While in my case it was a crucial part of what turned Calgacus from a dog who would attack other dogs on sight if he could to a dog who loved nothing more than a boisterous young dog running over to play with him - and who would spend hours outside next to our fence being a reassuring presence for my neighbour's old and blind dog. Teaching him tricks using clicker training helped him to soften his body and learn new ways of interacting with other dogs - skills that are incredibly useful for enormous dogs with completely black, oddly shaped faces. With the help of clicker training (along with TTouch) he learned to be thoughtful and careful in his approach with other dogs. I find the use of food really helpful when I bring new dogs into the house - especially if they have no experience of living with other dogs. None of my other dogs have suffered damage from being clicker trained. It isn't surprising that somebody with my experiences would be a fan of clicker training.

I have often wondered if the differences in why we were clicker training and who we were learning it from play a part too. I learned it first of all as a first time dog owner when I took Calgacus to a training class - and then later used it to help him to do things other than behave aggressively toward other dogs when he developed problems. I think that Fever (sorry, Fever, if this isn't correct) was using clickers in a more competitive environment to teach agility. For me, clicker training has always been about finding a way to help the dogs to think more for themselves, explore more, find out more about how they can interact with the world around them. I haven't ever been heavily involved in that world but would guess that for many people who want to win at agility, the clicker becomes a tool to get compliance from the dog in doing agility.

Again - differences in experience can lead people down different paths.

I enjoy reading about Fever's views and experiences - I find it fascinating and thought provoking and kind to her dogs - so even if it isn't what I would do myself I see her view as a valuable contribution to this forum.

I do hope that you hang around, Fever. I find what you write excellent and it doesn't read as a personal attack to me - even though I do loads of things that you wouldn't.

Clicker train, have dogs that ping off when I let them off lead unless I ask them not to, use food when helping them learn how to get along etc etc


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traceymcl
post 1st Feb 2017, 4:41 pm
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I had another thought for your lovely GSD boy. It might be worth checking out your local area for walking spots with different etiquettes. One of my bullmastiffs really loved meeting young, bouncy dogs who would run over to us. He really loved a game with that sort of dog.

I have no doubt that if it didn't happen regularly, he would have started running off to see other dogs - which I couldn't let him do.

So I used to take him to a local country park sometimes. It was mostly populated with lively adolescent dogs who expected to play with every dog they saw. Perfect place for Calgacus to get his need to meet those dogs met without causing problems for his recall. The dogs came to us - all I had to do was unclip Calgacus's lead. smile.gif

I never walk Cuillin there. He doesn't enjoy being leapt on by playful young dogs. lol.gif
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asher241
post 1st Feb 2017, 4:49 pm
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Wow, what have I missed!!! lol.gif

As to the recall, I teach my clients lots of different games to encourage good recalls, I advise them to tune dog into a whistle at feedtimes so the whistle becomes conditioned, I advise them about David Ryan's method, I also teach them about dropping a tiny piece of food at a regular interval (this has been proven to work with a lot of deaf dogs) as this teaches the dog to check in on a regular basis. I teach them how to practice letting their dogs play with their friends, calling them apart and then letting them play again (double reinforcer!). Basically, from the start with a pup or new dog I teach that owner how to be the most important thing in that dog's life so being with them is far more important than being with another dog. At the end of the day it is what works for that particular dog that counts, they are all different! The hard part of training is training the owner, it can be very hard to teach some people to be more "exciting" to their dog but we get there in the end ha ha! I am a clicker trainer (CAP1) but clicker isn't something I would necessarily use to mark a good recall. Also I never insist on a behaviour on the dog's return as some dogs can start to view coming back and then being asked to sit etc to be quite boring. Just my views and everyone is entitled to their own!
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