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> Dogs Behaving Badly. Ch 4 Saturday
woofgang
post 18th Mar 2017, 9:12 pm
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QUOTE(Annieskel @ 18th Mar 2017, 8:16 pm) *

I will try again, everything we do there is a positive and a negative, we ask a dog to sit and they sit, we reward them, positive and the dog should, not all do, sit when we ask again. If the dog doesn't sit we don't give them the treat, negative, this is what some say is worse than a shock collar, they really are stupid at times, the men not the dog.

So when we use positive training their is also negatives because we don't reward unless they do what we want, so positive training isn't all positive because we withhold the reward.

Is that any clearer. lol.gif lol.gif lol.gif


Oh I understood what you were saying, I just canít see how it makes a person a ďgood trainerĒ to put the dog in training circumstances where there is the possibility of withholding the reward. Th possibility of the dog not doing what we want in training should be as near to zero as we can get it.
From my POV, when I am training, if I ask my dog to sit and he doesnít thatís my fault not the dogís. Its the same as any behaviour I want the dog to offer when I am training
IMO this has a real life carry over in that the dog has absolute confidence in the request/compliance/reward interaction.

This post has been edited by woofgang: 18th Mar 2017, 9:14 pm
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nikirushka
post 19th Mar 2017, 7:14 am
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This bit sums it up nicely for me:

"Itís pretty simple, really. Anything that causes pain, fear, or intimidation to a dog is something that a positive trainer will not use. Note that I didnít include frustration. It is possible for a dog to become frustrated and sometimes a little stressed while being trained by a positive trainer, and while that is something worth trying to minimize, itís sometimes unavoidable. But positive trainers will never use a tool or method which intentionally intimidates the dog, or causes pain or fear."

Yes, sometimes we use what could be considered aversives, such as leaving a distressed dog because we have to go to work and are only partway through a training plan for SA; or removing something they want, such a a toy or a stolen cheese packet sigh.gif [/b]But we do not deliberately use anything that frightens or hurts that dog. I will use body blocks or hand stop-signals with dogs, or physically remove them from doing something to either help with the training (not allowing them to repeat an unwanted or unsafe behaviour pattern) or simply for their own safety (or our sanity - muchos barky dog might be shut away for a second to save our eardrums or allow me to talk through a brief plan for the barking). None of this is done in a way that I expect will intimidate, hurt or frighten the dog.
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Auntie Ange
post 19th Mar 2017, 11:40 am
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QUOTE(nikirushka @ 19th Mar 2017, 7:14 am) *

This bit sums it up nicely for me:

"Itís pretty simple, really. Anything that causes pain, fear, or intimidation to a dog is something that a positive trainer will not use. Note that I didnít include frustration. It is possible for a dog to become frustrated and sometimes a little stressed while being trained by a positive trainer, and while that is something worth trying to minimize, itís sometimes unavoidable. But positive trainers will never use a tool or method which intentionally intimidates the dog, or causes pain or fear."

Yes, sometimes we use what could be considered aversives, such as leaving a distressed dog because we have to go to work and are only partway through a training plan for SA; or removing something they want, such a a toy or a stolen cheese packet sigh.gif [/b]But we do not deliberately use anything that frightens or hurts that dog. I will use body blocks or hand stop-signals with dogs, or physically remove them from doing something to either help with the training (not allowing them to repeat an unwanted or unsafe behaviour pattern) or simply for their own safety (or our sanity - muchos barky dog might be shut away for a second to save our eardrums or allow me to talk through a brief plan for the barking). None of this is done in a way that I expect will intimidate, hurt or frighten the dog.


The voice of reason and real life situations as usual nikirushka. Thank you.

With my young dog I used to have to insist on a sit as his alternative to leaping all over someone who stopped to speak to me. I kept such conversations to a minimum but at least felt I had to answer a direct question before moving on. So I guess if he refused it could be said it was my fault for not choosing the right time to ask for a sit.. But it was the advise of an APDT trainer.

Ange
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woofgang
post 19th Mar 2017, 3:14 pm
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QUOTE(Auntie Ange @ 19th Mar 2017, 11:40 am) *

The voice of reason and real life situations as usual nikirushka. Thank you.

With my young dog I used to have to insist on a sit as his alternative to leaping all over someone who stopped to speak to me. I kept such conversations to a minimum but at least felt I had to answer a direct question before moving on. So I guess if he refused it could be said it was my fault for not choosing the right time to ask for a sit.. But it was the advise of an APDT trainer.

Ange


But thatís not what I meant by training...and why I bolded training. Of course in real life dogs are not automata and sometimes we will ask for stuff at a time when they canít comply. Thatís part of my point......when I am training, I can control the environment quite closely. I can set the dog up to succeed virtually every time and gradually increase the counter stimuli making a really strong ask-comply-reward link which in turn makes success in real life easier to attain.
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Auntie Ange
post 19th Mar 2017, 4:33 pm
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QUOTE(woofgang @ 19th Mar 2017, 3:14 pm) *

But thatís not what I meant by training...and why I bolded training. Of course in real life dogs are not automata and sometimes we will ask for stuff at a time when they canít comply. Thatís part of my point......when I am training, I can control the environment quite closely. I can set the dog up to succeed virtually every time and gradually increase the counter stimuli making a really strong ask-comply-reward link which in turn makes success in real life easier to attain.


I did understand your point woofgang because of the bold smile.gif . I was talking in terms of working with Lou when he was young and bouncy and the need to train in places with little distraction, so some make think I should not even have attempted a sit in the situation I described.

He is a good chap now at four years old and rarely tries to molest people lol.gif .

Ange
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woofgang
post 19th Mar 2017, 4:52 pm
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QUOTE(Auntie Ange @ 19th Mar 2017, 4:33 pm) *

I did understand your point woofgang because of the bold smile.gif . I was talking in terms of working with Lou when he was young and bouncy and the need to train in places with little distraction, so some make think I should not even have attempted a sit in the situation I described.

He is a good chap now at four years old and rarely tries to molest people lol.gif .

Ange


mine are nearly 10 and a pair of devils lol.gif
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nikirushka
post 19th Mar 2017, 6:08 pm
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QUOTE(woofgang @ 19th Mar 2017, 4:14 pm) *

But thatís not what I meant by training...and why I bolded training. Of course in real life dogs are not automata and sometimes we will ask for stuff at a time when they canít comply. Thatís part of my point......when I am training, I can control the environment quite closely. I can set the dog up to succeed virtually every time and gradually increase the counter stimuli making a really strong ask-comply-reward link which in turn makes success in real life easier to attain.


A fair distinction. However, I would suggest that the general public might consider us to be applying our training ethos at all times, and indeed we advise from that perspective too, telling people how to train their dogs in everyday situations as well as in carefully orchestrated training sessions. So no matter how well I might plan a training session, I still cannot call myself a purely positive trainer because I'm not!
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Annieskel
post 19th Mar 2017, 9:06 pm
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QUOTE(woofgang @ 18th Mar 2017, 9:12 pm) *
training[/b] circumstances where there is the possibility of withholding the reward. Th possibility of the dog not doing what we want in training should be as near to zero as we can get it.
From my POV, when I am training, if I ask my dog to sit and he doesnít thatís my fault not the dogís. Its the same as any behaviour I want the dog to offer when I am training
IMO this has a real life carry over in that the dog has absolute confidence in the request/compliance/reward interaction.



I agree with you but many trainers do withhold the reward often when they want to extend what they are doing. I will try and explain this as well.

We want a dog to stay, we put them in a sit and tell them to stay, the dog has been rewarded after the owner takes one step back and expects the reward then but this time the owner takes 2 steps back, the dog had to wait longer, some dogs will stay and be rewarded but others will move so no reward but put back into the sit and told to wait again. The dog doesn't understand why they were not rewarded. That is the negative to positive training. Even waiting longer for the reward is negative.

At one time owners and trainers would follow a dog round all day, sometimes several days, so they could reward the dog what they wanted them to do. With sit and down it may not be too long a wait but they not only had to reward the first time they had to keep doing it until the dog realised that when they sat they were rewarded would offer to sit.

There has been a lot of misunderstandings in dog training because the people doing the training didn't explain properly. When training to be a riding instructor I was told if they didn't get it after I had said it 3 times they will never get it and it is my fault not theirs and I had to change the way I explain it. All the dog trainers I have seen just keep repeating what they say every time and every class then blame the owner and the dog. Had that done to me as well in the past.



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Annieskel
post 19th Mar 2017, 9:11 pm
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QUOTE(nikirushka @ 19th Mar 2017, 7:14 am) *

This bit sums it up nicely for me:

"Itís pretty simple, really. Anything that causes pain, fear, or intimidation to a dog is something that a positive trainer will not use. Note that I didnít include frustration. It is possible for a dog to become frustrated and sometimes a little stressed while being trained by a positive trainer, and while that is something worth trying to minimize, itís sometimes unavoidable. But positive trainers will never use a tool or method which intentionally intimidates the dog, or causes pain or fear."

Yes, sometimes we use what could be considered aversives, such as leaving a distressed dog because we have to go to work and are only partway through a training plan for SA; or removing something they want, such a a toy or a stolen cheese packet sigh.gif [/b]But we do not deliberately use anything that frightens or hurts that dog. I will use body blocks or hand stop-signals with dogs, or physically remove them from doing something to either help with the training (not allowing them to repeat an unwanted or unsafe behaviour pattern) or simply for their own safety (or our sanity - muchos barky dog might be shut away for a second to save our eardrums or allow me to talk through a brief plan for the barking). None of this is done in a way that I expect will intimidate, hurt or frighten the dog.


The negative part of positive training doesn't hurt the dog, doesn't cause pain, fear or intimidation, some trainers will withhold the reward to get the dog to obey faster, it is still the negative part of positive training.


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Annieskel
post 19th Mar 2017, 9:16 pm
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QUOTE(Auntie Ange @ 19th Mar 2017, 11:40 am) *

The voice of reason and real life situations as usual nikirushka. Thank you.

With my young dog I used to have to insist on a sit as his alternative to leaping all over someone who stopped to speak to me. I kept such conversations to a minimum but at least felt I had to answer a direct question before moving on. So I guess if he refused it could be said it was my fault for not choosing the right time to ask for a sit.. But it was the advise of an APDT trainer.

Ange


This is what I mean when I said that there is a lot of misunderstandings, everyone on her uses positive methods when training their dogs including you Auntie Ange, you used the word 'Insist' we know what you mean but someone new to dog training may think you mean using force. Not getting at you, just using this as an example.



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Dalsmum
post 19th Mar 2017, 10:56 pm
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When I started dog training ,quite a few moons ago, it TCP- tell, compel, praise.

SO tell them what to do, put them in the position and then praise.



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woofgang
post 19th Mar 2017, 11:28 pm
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QUOTE(Annieskel @ 19th Mar 2017, 9:11 pm) *

The negative part of positive training doesn't hurt the dog, doesn't cause pain, fear or intimidation, some trainers will withhold the reward to get the dog to obey faster, it is still the negative part of positive training.

I have never understood how (or if) that works....Its like someone posted on FB recently (not someone from here) that she always carrys three lots of treats on walks and only gives her dog the best treat for a really fast recall err.gif
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nikirushka
post 20th Mar 2017, 7:33 am
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In that context, it's refinement of the behaviour - increasing the criteria. So if you're training a retrieve, you might initially reward all interactions with the object to be retrieved in order to build interest and get the dog going in the right direction, but then you would begin to refine your criteria (e.g. only rewarding touching the object with nose/mouth rather than feet as well). So some rewards would then be withheld to progress the current behaviour towards the target behaviour.

Personally I do a variation of that by praising for a low-value recall (e.g. short distance, no distractions, everyday 'let's move on' type recall) but I reward with great treats and excitement for a high-value recall (other dogs approaching, cat etc). I find that the delivery of the treats is often more effective for improving a recall than the treats themselves, though - a bit of both, sure, but I've had clients' dogs recalling to me for bits of frolic who wouldn't recall to them for a pot of sardines!

This post has been edited by nikirushka: 20th Mar 2017, 7:49 am
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Annieskel
post 20th Mar 2017, 7:52 am
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QUOTE(Dalsmum @ 19th Mar 2017, 10:56 pm) *

When I started dog training ,quite a few moons ago, it TCP- tell, compel, praise.

SO tell them what to do, put them in the position and then praise.
,



Yes, I agree but as dogs think for themselves what would you do if they didn't to what you told them to do?

Dogs don't know what to do at first, we have to teach them what the words mean and try to set them up to do what we want but even then it takes time and patience for them to work out what the word means.


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Annieskel
post 20th Mar 2017, 7:59 am
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QUOTE(nikirushka @ 20th Mar 2017, 7:33 am) *

In that context, it's refinement of the behaviour - increasing the criteria. So if you're training a retrieve, you might initially reward all interactions with the object to be retrieved in order to build interest and get the dog going in the right direction, but then you would begin to refine your criteria (e.g. only rewarding touching the object with nose/mouth rather than feet as well). So some rewards would then be withheld to progress the current behaviour towards the target behaviour.


That withholding the treat is the negative side of positive training.

It took a long time for me to realise what is meant by negative positive training. It doesn't hurt the dog but does make they try to work out why they didn't get the reward.

QUOTE
Personally I do a variation of that by praising for a low-value recall (e.g. short distance, no distractions, everyday 'let's move on' type recall) but I reward with great treats and excitement for a high-value recall (other dogs approaching, cat etc). I find that the delivery of the treats is often more effective for improving a recall than the treats themselves, though - a bit of both, sure, but I've had clients' dogs recalling to me for bits of frolic who wouldn't recall to them for a pot of sardines!


I always reward for recall, I don't always give treats it depends on which dog has recalled. Dolly will do anything for a ball and will ignore treats if I have a ball in my hand. Bonnie will come for a ball, tuggy or treat, Cyril for a tuggy and Tilly just loves to run even if it means running back to me, she always appreciates a treat. Jamie I never let off the lead because of his fear of men and strange dogs.


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